(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
DT[2014-04-15]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Pandanet Go European Team Championship 2013/2014

League A 2013/2014 - Round 8

Finland vs. Israel  2 – 2 (0110)

Antti on board 1 lost by forfeit due to technical difficulties.

Namii [8d\]: Hi yo
Finnish8d [-\]: hi ^^
snowman [-\]: ni hao
Finnish8d [-\]: Alright so I will comment Namii's and Prodi's probably ^^
]MULTIGOGM[1]
(;B[qd]C[White: Ofer Zivony, 4 dan
Black: Juri Kuronen, 6 dan

Result: B+13.5

]
;W[dc]
;B[pp]
;W[dp]
;B[oc]
;W[qn]
;B[nq]C[Namii [8d\]: I'll have a quick toilet break
Finnish8d [-\]: sure ^^
]
;W[rp]C[Namii [8d\]: took a long hassle to get the .sgf done :D
]
;B[qm]
;W[pm]
;B[ql]
;W[pn]
;B[qq]
;W[pi]
;B[qj]
;W[ok]
(;B[pj]C[Namii [8d\]: Yeah, that's why I had to turn back to S6
]
;W[oj]
;B[oi]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I wonder if this is a reasonable fight, to me this fight looks pretty negative, since b still needs moves to live inside.
Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah, so to me you'd rather just live low on the right
]
;W[mp]
;B[mq]
;W[qi]
;B[ri]
;W[rh]
;B[rj]
;W[pg]
;B[ni]
;W[qe]
;B[pe]
;W[qf]
;B[pd]
;W[ng]
;B[rn]
;W[ro]
;B[sm]
;W[op]
;B[np]C[Finnish8d [-\]: And this is an obvious mistake to me
Namii [8d\]: I decided to give it to him in sente, because he hurt his own position in the process
Finnish8d [-\]: cos this means w fixes the cutting point in sente
Finnish8d [-\]: but I mean
]
;W[oo]
;B[oq]LB[oo:3][np:4][op:1][oq:2]C[Namii [8d\]: but in retrospect sente is important so I agree on P3 ^^
Finnish8d [-\]: This is like you played move 4 yourself
Namii [8d\]: hmm...
Namii [8d\]: true
Finnish8d [-\]: is that really important?
Namii [8d\]: So simple mistake :P
Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah, that is why I said it is an obvious mistake
]
;W[mk]
;B[mh]
;W[mg]
;B[kh]
;W[jg]C[Namii [8d\]: What the heck is this :P
Finnish8d [-\]: And this is w overplay, sure :P
Finnish8d [-\]: I felt difficult until w played this move, when watching the game
]
;B[kk]
;W[jh]
;B[ki]
;W[km]
;B[lf]
;W[lg]
;B[kg]
;W[kf]
;B[le]
;W[jf]
;B[ji]
;W[rd]
;B[rc]
;W[oh]C[Finnish8d [-\]: So probably you'd attack w inside right away then?
Namii [8d\]: Yeah
Finnish8d [-\]: ok : )
]
;B[of]
;W[qh]C[Namii [8d\]: I missed R12
Finnish8d [-\]: Here I read for long
Namii [8d\]: but still the position is not bad for me I think
]
(;B[hi]C[Namii [8d\]: normally it dies but S10 is too weak, funnily :P
Namii [8d\]: but still this is good for b, no?
Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah it is
Namii [8d\]: actually if I kill, I still must finish the kill
Namii [8d\]: and w gets center stones
Finnish8d [-\]: after w overplay at K13
Namii [8d\]: so I think letting w live is better
Finnish8d [-\]: also L7 is also kinda overplay
Namii [8d\]: cause H11 is such an important move
Namii [8d\]: Yeah, definitely
Finnish8d [-\]: with wrong shape, it is definitely an easy game to b
]
;W[kd]
;B[ld]
;W[im]
;B[nm]C[Namii [8d\]: but I saw I can connect all my groups, so I went for it
Finnish8d [-\]: Ok I see
Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah to me it is a bit too early to do this
]
;W[mn]C[Namii [8d\]: O7 is probably too hasty
]
;B[og]
;W[nh]
;B[mj]
;W[se]
;B[po]
;W[qo]
;B[ol]C[Namii [8d\]: This is again a game where I had trouble 'getting into it'
]
;W[pl]C[Finnish8d [-\]: ok
]
;B[pk]
;W[nn]
;B[nk]
;W[jq]
;B[gd]C[Namii [8d\]: it's because past several months, I couldn't focus on go, but now it's getting easier again
Finnish8d [-\]: And yes this is bigger than K3
Namii [8d\]: Yeah
]
;W[id]
;B[gf]
;W[fe]
;B[ge]
;W[kc]C[Namii [8d\]: because he is 4d and makes these sort of mistakes, it ends up looking like I had no problem
]
(;B[hc]C[Namii [8d\]: but in fact several questionable moves
Namii [8d\]: H17 too :P
]
;W[mb]
;B[lc]
;W[lb]
;B[jb]
;W[ib]C[Namii [8d\]: this should be M17
]
;B[ic]
;W[jc]
;B[qb]
;W[hb]C[Namii [8d\]: isntead of N18
]
;B[rg]
;W[rf]
;B[sh]C[Namii [8d\]: but no big difference
]
;W[sg]C[Namii [8d\]: now the funny part
]
;B[sf]
;W[nd]C[Namii [8d\]: hehe
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
Namii [8d\]: actually ti's not a ko ;P
]
;B[nc]
;W[sg]
;B[gb]
;W[ja]
;B[sf]
;W[mc]
;B[ne]
;W[sg]
(;B[de]C[Namii [8d\]: he can at anytime play R13
Namii [8d\]: but both of us missed it
Finnish8d [-\]: So you know that all the time? :P
Namii [8d\]: no
Namii [8d\]: like I said, it was a double bluff
Namii [8d\]: :D
snowman [-\]: both of you?
Finnish8d [-\]: I see ^^
Namii [8d\]: this game reminded me of B league
Finnish8d [-\]: That is hard to believe, since it is so simple :P
Namii [8d\]: cause all my games in B league were like that
Finnish8d [-\]: Israel is a B league team actually
Finnish8d [-\]: I mean, its strength
Namii [8d\]: 13.5. is the last round, I will be in shape by then
Finnish8d [-\]: ok nice ^^
snowman [-\]: check
Finnish8d [-\]: Just to tell in advance: as my calculation and prediction, we still need 1 more game win
Namii [8d\]: Yes ^^
Finnish8d [-\]: so 1:3 is ok
Namii [8d\]: with 0 wins, we need extremely good luck
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
Finnish8d [-\]: and here
Finnish8d [-\]: wonder if you'd approach low?
]
;W[fc]
;B[sf]
;W[me]
;B[md]
;W[sg]
;B[gc]
;W[si]
;B[cc]C[Namii [8d\]: so again good for b, I got this for free :P
Finnish8d [-\]: ok now I finally understand the story on the right side ^^
]
;W[cd]C[Namii [8d\]: it was quite silly..
]
;B[dd]
;W[bc]
;B[cb]
;W[ce]
;B[cf]
;W[bf]
;B[df]
;W[bg]
;B[ha]
;W[kb]
;B[bb]
;W[cj]
(;B[cl]C[Finnish8d [-\]: And do you really need this?
Namii [8d\]: you will just C3?
Finnish8d [-\]: b has so many points, I'd just take sansan to win
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
Namii [8d\]: Right
Namii [8d\]: that's safer
Finnish8d [-\]: right, I don't want to risk it ^^
]
;W[cn]
;B[bi]
;W[ci]
;B[bj]
;W[bh]
;B[ck]
;W[dh]
;B[ek]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Still sharp and good going here
]
;W[bd]
;B[ac]
;W[ab]
;B[ec]
;W[gh]
;B[dq]
;W[eq]
;B[cp]
;W[do]
;B[cr]
;W[er]
;B[bo]
;W[bn]
;B[bq]
;W[fj]
;B[gl]
;W[em]
;B[fk]
;W[gj]
;B[gn]
;W[fm]
;B[gm]
;W[ik]
;B[fo]
;W[ep]
;B[dm]
;W[dn]C[Finnish8d [-\]: so you have to exchange that earlier
Namii [8d\]: so G4 is a miss
Namii [8d\]: maybe here D10?
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah that is what I meant
]
(;B[gp]C[Namii [8d\]: instead of E8
]
;W[dl]
;B[cm]C[Namii [8d\]: then he can cap the stones at C8
]
(;W[en]C[Namii [8d\]: here
Namii [8d\]: so D9
Namii [8d\]: anyway, he missed his fianl chance
]
;B[el]C[Namii [8d\]: he should D9
]
;W[gk]
;B[fl]
;W[ho]
;B[bm]
;W[an]
;B[am]C[Namii [8d\]: B7 is also a miss, I should live cleaner
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah, so after that mostly byoyomi mistakes
Namii [8d\]: yep
Finnish8d [-\]: B7 is ok
Namii [8d\]: I think we got the main points for this one
Finnish8d [-\]: A7 is not necessary
Namii [8d\]: isn't?
Namii [8d\]: ahhh
Namii [8d\]: I see ^^
Finnish8d [-\]: ^^
Namii [8d\]: so directly D2
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
Finnish8d [-\]: then it is done
]
;W[hq]
;B[dr]C[Finnish8d [-\]: still, after you get D2, it is done
Namii [8d\]: Yep
Finnish8d [-\]: alright, so we may turn to Prodi's
Namii [8d\]: Yeah
Finnish8d [-\]: that is an easy win
]
;W[rr]
;B[rq]
;W[sq]
;B[qr]
;W[lr]
;B[mr]
;W[lq]
;B[mo]
;W[lp]
;B[no]
;W[om]
;B[nl]
;W[lo]
;B[on]
;W[oo]
;B[hn]
;W[io]
;B[fp]
;W[mf]
;B[od]
;W[ao]
;B[bp]
;W[ms]
;B[ns]
;W[ls]
;B[sr]
;W[ss]
;B[ps]
;W[pa]
;B[aa]
;W[ad]
;B[hp]
;W[gq]
;B[ip]
;W[jp]
;B[in]
;W[jn]
;B[jl]
;W[jk]
;B[kl]
;W[il]
;B[lm]
;W[mm]
;B[ml]
;W[ln]
;B[ll]
;W[lh]
;B[li]
;W[mi]
;B[nj]
;W[ff]
;B[fd]
;W[fh]
;B[dj]
;W[di]
;B[ej]
;W[ai]
;B[ak]
;W[hh]
;B[jm]
;W[ii]
;B[ij]
;W[ih]
;B[jj]
;W[hj]
;B[kn]
;W[jo]
;B[iq]
;W[ir]
;B[fr]
;W[fq]
;B[es]
;W[gr]
;B[fs]
;W[gs]
;B[ds]
;W[ab]
;B[ee]
;W[ba]
;B[db]
;W[gg]
;B[eg]
;W[fg]
;B[ie]
;W[ke]
;B[nd]
;W[ei]
;B[pb]
;W[oa]
;B[qa]
;W[nb]
;B[ob]
;W[na]
;B[cg]
;W[ch]
;B[sc]
;W[if]
;B[hf]
;W[sj]
;B[sk]
;W[sh]
;B[sd]
;W[re]
;B[ko]
;W[kp]
;B[km]
;W[ah]
;B[aj]
;W[hg]
;B[ca]
;W[sp]
;B[rm]
;W[ac]
;B[nf]
;W[ph]
;B[mh]
;W[qs]
;B[rs]
;W[go]
;B[fn]
;W[qs]
;B[or]
;W[sr]
;B[rs]
;W[aa]
;B[qs]
;W[mi]
;B[ga]
;W[ia]
;B[mh]
;W[rk]
;B[sl]
;W[mi]
;B[op]
;W[on]
;B[mh]
;W[je]
;B[he]
;W[mi]
;B[ka]
;W[la]
;B[mh]
;W[ef]
;B[dg]
;W[mi]
;B[hm]
;W[hk]
;B[mh]
;W[bk]
;B[bl]
;W[mi]
;B[hd]
;W[mh]
;B[jd]
;W[lj]
;B[kj]
;W[id]
;B[be]
;W[ae]
;B[jd]
;W[ap]
;B[aq]
;W[id]
;B[af]
;W[ag]
;B[jd]
;W[br]
;B[bs]
;W[id]
;B[jr]
;W[js]
;B[jd]
;W[as]
;B[ar]
;W[id]
;B[dk]
;W[jd]
;B[eo]
;W[kr]
;B[]
;W[]
;B[])
(;W[dk]C[Finnish8d [-\]: and a false eye, I see
Finnish8d [-\]: yes
]
(;B[dj]
;W[el]
;B[ej]
;W[en]
;B[eh]C[Namii [8d\]: I believe I have no other option
])
(;B[el]
;W[dj]
;B[en]
;W[bm]
;B[bk]
;W[hq]C[Namii [8d\]: cause can that b group get two eyes?
Finnish8d [-\]: this is risky
])))
(;B[dj]
(;W[dl]
;B[ei]C[Namii [8d\]: don't think w can hold b like this
])
(;W[di]
(;B[en])
(;B[gp]C[Namii [8d\]: so like this, huh
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah now it works
]))))
(;B[cq]))
(;B[ce]C[Finnish8d [-\]: since you're attacking the corner
Finnish8d [-\]: I mean, to be reasonable ^^
Namii [8d\]: very puzzling why I didn't
Finnish8d [-\]: hehe ok
]))
(;B[lc]C[Namii [8d\]: Yep
Finnish8d [-\]: To me still block is bigger
Namii [8d\]: I thought R18 is sente...
Finnish8d [-\]: so force him to live towards the komoku stone
Namii [8d\]: soon we'll see something funny :D
Finnish8d [-\]: Ah ok
Namii [8d\]: Yeah
Finnish8d [-\]: I was wondering in the game
Namii [8d\]: hehe...
Finnish8d [-\]: that why you didn't do T17 
Namii [8d\]: I bluffed, opponent believed it, so did I :D
Namii [8d\]: Yeah has to be that one
Finnish8d [-\]: hehe ok
]))
(;B[rg]
(;W[rf]C[Finnish8d [-\]: w will answer this way, right?
Namii [8d\]: I read T14
Finnish8d [-\]: I know you read a lot in the game
])
(;W[sf]
;B[sd]C[Namii [8d\]: and then I'll lose the semeai
]
;W[og]
;B[sh]
;W[sg]
;B[rf]
;W[si]
;B[re]C[Namii [8d\]: s8 
]
;W[rl]C[Namii [8d\]: I can make it a bad ko only
]
;B[rk]
;W[pk]
;B[sl]
;W[sj]
;B[qg]
;W[qk]
;B[sk]
;W[sh]C[Finnish8d [-\]: alright get it
])))
(;B[qi]
;W[ph]
;B[rg]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I may just simply live under and get points.
Namii [8d\]: ok back ^^
Finnish8d [-\]: ok, what do you think?
Namii [8d\]: Hehe, yes I considered it, but I thought the fighting is reasonable since I had the shimari to back it
Finnish8d [-\]: Ok I see
Namii [8d\]: This felt just a bit low
Namii [8d\]: but actually black's territory is nice
Finnish8d [-\]: I doubt it mainly for your inside group owes a move to live
]))
(;B[qd]C[White: Juuso Nyyssönen, 5 dan
Black: Reem Ben-David, 3 dan

Result: W+Resign

Namii [8d\]: his opponent did nothing
]
;W[dp]
;B[dc]
;W[qp]
;B[cn]
;W[fq]
;B[ch]
;W[od]
;B[oc]
;W[nc]
;B[pc]
;W[nd]
;B[qf]
;W[jd]
;B[hc]
;W[fc]C[Namii [8d\]: Eerika said that
Namii [8d\]: he and Juuso were looking at this move earlier in a pro game
Namii [8d\]: and Juuso wanted to try it
Namii [8d\]: I've seen similar ideas a lot recently ^^
Finnish8d [-\]: aha ok I see
Namii [8d\]: pros are getting more direct
Namii [8d\]: black completely failed handling this move
Finnish8d [-\]: I am not sure if this will turn to a positive result
Namii [8d\]: so after that it's already Juuso's game :P
Namii [8d\]: Yeah
Finnish8d [-\]: while watching I was hesitating on this
]
(;B[he]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah that is what I will do as b
Finnish8d [-\]: go back there please
]
;W[dd]
;B[cd]
;W[cc]
;B[bc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: yeah this atari is already very wrong
]
;W[cb]
;B[db]
;W[bb]
;B[ed]
;W[de]
;B[ec]
(;W[ee]
;B[fd]C[Finnish8d [-\]: just w turn is unecessary
Namii [8d\]: already white's game :P
]
;W[ce]
;B[jb]
;W[ng]
;B[pi]
;W[ck]
;B[cp]
;W[cq]
;B[do]
;W[bp]
;B[bo]
;W[co]
;B[ni]
;W[cp]
;B[me]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I was thinking about to play on the right hand first
Namii [8d\]: my instinct is probably to keima with M14
Namii [8d\]: but if you can get a good forcing move on the right hand side
]
(;W[ld]C[snowman [-\]: what about D15 instead of the H15
Namii [8d\]: This is again puzzling :P
]
(;B[le]
;W[ke]C[Finnish8d [-\]: in the game this happened, looks good now
Namii [8d\]: yeah
]
;B[kc]
;W[lf]
;B[mf]
;W[mg]
;B[kd]
;W[lg]C[Namii [8d\]: and again b took another loss on the lower left
Namii [8d\]: when he got nothing severe out of the kothreat O11
Finnish8d [-\]: also I don't understand why b didn't atari L14 all the time
Finnish8d [-\]: that will kill w a move
]
;B[md]
;W[mc]
;B[lc]
;W[pg]
;B[qg]
;W[li]C[Namii [8d\]: M11 is nice
]
;B[lk]
;W[jj]
;B[dk]
;W[cl]
;B[jk]
;W[ij]
;B[kj]
;W[ki]
;B[ik]
;W[hj]
;B[hk]
;W[gj]
;B[dj]
;W[cm]
;B[fl]
;W[oq]C[Finnish8d [-\]: yeah here tenuki again, very clear
Namii [8d\]: F8 is worth nothing
Finnish8d [-\]: so w lives, w wins
Namii [8d\]: cause be fails his next attempt too
Namii [8d\]: hehe
Namii [8d\]: impossible to kill that ^^
]
;B[hh]
;W[ih]
;B[ig]
;W[jh]
;B[np]
;W[op]C[Namii [8d\]: and definitely not H12
]
;B[no]
;W[oo]C[Namii [8d\]: i you want to try
Finnish8d [-\]: right
]
;B[on]
;W[pn]
;B[pm]
;W[qm]
;B[om]
;W[ql]
;B[ip]
;W[mr]C[Finnish8d [-\]: And I guess there is nothing more after
Namii [8d\]: yeah, resign shortly
Finnish8d [-\]: in general just too easy ^^
Namii [8d\]: hehe
Finnish8d [-\]: w did in general nice and clear
Finnish8d [-\]: alright
Namii [8d\]: very Prodi'ish ^^
Finnish8d [-\]: and would you take the last game maybe?
Namii [8d\]: sure
]
;B[lq]
;W[mq]
;B[lp]
;W[go])
(;B[of]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Actually not sure what w may do if b just seperate
Finnish8d [-\]: so in the game
Namii [8d\]: but I wonder what he had in mind now
Finnish8d [-\]: I just don't know what he plans to do if b keima
Finnish8d [-\]: to me it is difficult
Finnish8d [-\]: and K18 is a perfect position
Finnish8d [-\]: if b has keima here, what is your plan next?
Prodigious [-\]: haha, i wonder
Finnish8d [-\]: because this is one when watching, that I have worried about
Prodigious [-\]: m16 was probably not too good
Finnish8d [-\]: so I didn't like your M16
Finnish8d [-\]: right ok
]))
(;W[lf]
;B[le]
;W[kf]
;B[lc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: That is also my instinct
Namii [8d\]: too easy for b, huh
Finnish8d [-\]: but I doubt if w can handle it
Namii [8d\]: w cannot find the next move easily
Finnish8d [-\]: guess not
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
Finnish8d [-\]: so I didn't consider this one
Finnish8d [-\]: to me it is a move on the right hand
])
(;W[pe])
(;W[pg]C[Finnish8d [-\]: probably has to be something relatively ugly
Finnish8d [-\]: but fix it
])
(;W[pd]C[Finnish8d [-\]: maybe this one first
Prodigious [-\]: yeah, something like this makes sense
Prodigious [-\]: force with q14 etc
Finnish8d [-\]: was thinking about to get some moves on this area first
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah exactly
Finnish8d [-\]: then ok, I guess everything in this game is clear then
Finnish8d [-\]: right?
Prodigious [-\]: nothing too interesting happened later yeah
Namii [8d\]: ok, back to Mikko's? :P
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah I guess
Finnish8d [-\]: so you may take over
]
;B[qc]
;W[pf]
;B[pg]
;W[og]C[Namii [8d\]: prodi doesn't like these sort of things usually, so I understand his M16
Finnish8d [-\]: ok
]))
(;W[ce]C[Namii [8d\]: Right
Finnish8d [-\]: that aji is b trouble
]))
(;B[de]LB[fc:3][hc:4][jd:1][de:2]C[Namii [8d\]: juuso's plan is to H16 directly or D18 first?
Namii [8d\]: maybe H16 directly
Namii [8d\]: wait a sec
Finnish8d [-\]: To me 3 is the one that is less reasonable
Namii [8d\]: I'll ask Juuso to join us for a moment
Namii [8d\]: if he replies
Finnish8d [-\]: sure
snowman [-\]: white wall is sligthly useless
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah, doesn't help any for this fight
Namii [8d\]: I guess prodi is afk
Finnish8d [-\]: ok
Finnish8d [-\]: so we move on then?
Namii [8d\]: Yeah, he can maybe join us later
Namii [8d\]: and we'll come back to this
Finnish8d [-\]: ok
Namii [8d\]: you can have controls again ^^
Finnish8d [-\]: So we were wondering your opinion on this
Prodigious [-\]: ah yeah, not completely sure what i was going to do
Finnish8d [-\]: Ah ok
Finnish8d [-\]: so logically
Prodigious [-\]: in pro games they were playing e16 instead of d15
Finnish8d [-\]: 1 and 2 are both reasonable
Finnish8d [-\]: 3 is too close to b shimari shape
snowman [-\]: database has e16 or k17 instead of d15
Finnish8d [-\]: so b invasion next is reasonable
Finnish8d [-\]: locally seems like 3 is the one that is unreasonable, only 
Prodigious [-\]: sure
Finnish8d [-\]: Ah ok
Prodigious [-\]: i had just seen it in a pro game and it looked fun, so i played it
Finnish8d [-\]: with K16 stone there?
Prodigious [-\]: i haven't really analyzed it too much
Prodigious [-\]: yeah
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah Namii mentioned that ^^
Namii [8d\]: well, pros already turned over several 'conventional fuseki logics'
Namii [8d\]: wouldn't be a first :P
Finnish8d [-\]: ok : )
]
;W[hd]
;B[id])
(;B[jc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: This I can understand
])
(;B[ed]
;W[fd]
;B[he]C[Finnish8d [-\]: E16 probably means this
snowman [-\]: yeah
Finnish8d [-\]: so pro games don't agree with D15 choice then :P
Prodigious [-\]: yea
Finnish8d [-\]: ok get it, have to think about it later ^^
Finnish8d [-\]: and another to prodi
]))
(;B[pd]C[White: Maayan Blum, 2 dan
Black: Mikko Siukola, 4 dan

Result: W+22.5

]
;W[dc]
;B[pp]
;W[dq]
;B[do]
;W[cm]
;B[cq]
;W[gq]
;B[dp]
;W[dr]
;B[cn]
;W[dl]
;B[cr]
;W[jq]
;B[ck]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Too hurry
Namii [8d\]: ah, prodi is here
Finnish8d [-\]: Ah prodi is here
Prodigious [-\]: yo
Namii [8d\]: shall we discuss a bit?
Finnish8d [-\]: sure
Namii [8d\]: This move is very much Mikko's style :P
]
;W[bn]
;B[bo]
;W[dn]
;B[co]
;W[dk]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I see, i have no idea about Mikko's style ^^
Finnish8d [-\]: I will just say it is way too early
Namii [8d\]: Yeah, I wouldn't do it either
Namii [8d\]: w shouldn't mind this fighting
]
;B[ci]
;W[cj]C[Finnish8d [-\]: right, a negative fight to b
]
;B[bj]
;W[dj]
;B[bl]
;W[bm]
;B[di]
;W[ei]
;B[dg]
;W[eh]
;B[ce]
;W[cd]
;B[de]C[Finnish8d [-\]: but it doesn't really worth a move
]
(;W[be]LB[bg:A]C[Namii [8d\]: w played this hane because he had that special idea
snowman [-\]: that's greedy, isn't it
Namii [8d\]: but did he really need the hane
Finnish8d [-\]: I didn't get it
Namii [8d\]: he wants to play A later
Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah I know
]
;B[bf]
;W[bd]
(;B[en]
;W[bg]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Just C13
Finnish8d [-\]: let it
Namii [8d\]: Yeah,
Finnish8d [-\]: E6 is in case if b wanna attack, but it is hard to attack w that group anyway
]
(;B[cf]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I remember in the game, there is something on the left side
Namii [8d\]: hmm
Namii [8d\]: in the game w tenukid to R14
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah, cos he has gained already
Finnish8d [-\]: E10 is no longer a cutting point
Namii [8d\]: yes, F17 doesn't feel that big now
]
;W[qf]
;B[nc]
;W[rd]
;B[qg]
;W[pg]
;B[qh]
;W[pf]
(;B[rf]C[Namii [8d\]: Ah..
]
;W[re]
;B[qc]
;W[pi]
;B[qj]
;W[rg]C[Namii [8d\]: so w can take care of it like this and already lives :P
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
]
;B[rh]
;W[sf]
;B[fj]C[Namii [8d\]: So mikko's troubles started here
Namii [8d\]: because he missed that b11
Finnish8d [-\]: and this is a mistake for sure
Namii [8d\]: yeah
]
;W[bi]
;B[bh]
;W[ch]
(;B[dh]
;W[ah]C[Finnish8d [-\]: or, refuse to admit a mistake
]
;B[cg]
;W[ej]
;B[fl]
;W[cl]
;B[bk]
;W[af]
;B[bh]C[Finnish8d [-\]: like this it is already very hard to b, cos w is actually alive
Namii [8d\]: can w continue "normal go"?
]
(;W[em]C[Finnish8d [-\]: just difficult for w to think that way
]
;B[fm]C[Finnish8d [-\]: luckily in the game w was pretty generous
Namii [8d\]: yeah this kind of a threat costs :P
Namii [8d\]: w wants to win the ko no matter what
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
]
;W[ch]
;B[ae]
;W[ad]
;B[bh]
;W[fn]
;B[eo]
;W[ch]
;B[aj]
;W[al]
;B[bh]
;W[gk]C[Namii [8d\]: so one way street until here
Finnish8d [-\]: and this is a relatively small price to pay
Finnish8d [-\]: w should have asked this first
Namii [8d\]: ok, anyway
Namii [8d\]: this ko is 'too simple'
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
Namii [8d\]: limited ways it can end up
Namii [8d\]: in any case w gains, cause the ko on the left was a picnic ko
]
;B[ai]
;W[fk]
;B[gn]C[Finnish8d [-\]: now back to a game
Namii [8d\]: right
Finnish8d [-\]: to me it is still ok
Namii [8d\]: yeah
Namii [8d\]: but w is leading
Namii [8d\]: I guess that's why b also played here
Finnish8d [-\]: sure, just limited
]
;W[qn]C[Namii [8d\]: to me this is too severe :P
Finnish8d [-\]: it is
Namii [8d\]: that's why I doubt G6 
Finnish8d [-\]: Ah ok
Namii [8d\]: whether b should face this kind of fight
Finnish8d [-\]: well b is still thinking about to attack w centre
Namii [8d\]: yep
]
;B[pj]C[Finnish8d [-\]: also not to play G6 means to admit everything he did on the left is wrong
Namii [8d\]: hehe
Prodigious [-\]: b has a very distant dream
Namii [8d\]: well, straightforward continuation
Namii [8d\]: except
]
(;W[np]C[Namii [8d\]: hmm
Namii [8d\]: maybe this could be too easy
]
(;B[pn]
;W[pm]
;B[on]
;W[qp]C[Prodigious [-\]: even the way b played it in the game felt a bit easy for b
Prodigious [-\]: but then he refused to live with his group
Namii [8d\]: yeah
Namii [8d\]: that L2
]
;B[qq]
;W[qo]
;B[op]
;W[om]
;B[rl]C[Namii [8d\]: b needs this kind of sabaki now ^^
]
;W[rm]
;B[ql]
;W[qm]
;B[rq]C[Namii [8d\]: this is very big, yes
]
;W[nn]
;B[nq]
;W[mp]
;B[mq]
;W[lq]
;B[lr]
;W[lp]
(;B[kr]
;W[oj]C[Namii [8d\]: so
]
(;B[ok]
;W[nj]
;B[nk]
;W[mk]
(;B[nl]
;W[nm]
;B[ml]
;W[ll]
;B[lk]
;W[mj]
;B[lm]
;W[kl]
;B[mm]
;W[km]
;B[kn]
;W[jn]
;B[oi]
;W[ph]
;B[mn]C[Namii [8d\]: and afterwards no chances
]
;W[mo]C[Finnish8d [-\]: w did it all correct after
]
;B[jo]
;W[ko]
;B[lj]
;W[ni]C[Finnish8d [-\]: so it is done here actually
Namii [8d\]: yes, finishing blow ^^
Finnish8d [-\]: b should have asked O12 though, at least
Prodigious [-\]: yeah, w found o11 unfortunately
]
(;B[ln]
;W[io]
;B[jm]
;W[in]
;B[pk]
;W[rk]
;B[il]
;W[jk]
;B[hj]C[Namii [8d\]: right
Namii [8d\]: huge diff here
Namii [8d\]: if b has O12
]
;W[li]C[Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
]
;B[gj]
;W[gh]
(;B[hh]
;W[ff]
(;B[gg]C[Namii [8d\]: too crude 
]
;W[fg]
;B[ec]
;W[eb]
;B[kj]
;W[ik]C[Finnish8d [-\]: it cannot be done 
Namii [8d\]: ah yeah, simple
Namii [8d\]: ok
Namii [8d\]: I guess that's it ^^
Namii [8d\]: only 3 games
Finnish8d [-\]: right
Namii [8d\]: I'll try to clean up the commentary a bit
Finnish8d [-\]: Prodi will play the last round right?
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah please, thanks buddy. : )
Namii [8d\]: Prodi: we need 1 win :P
Finnish8d [-\]: We still need one more win
Namii [8d\]: you'd increase our chances a lot
Namii [8d\]: " a lot"
Namii [8d\]: we may go from 20% to 30% of getting 1 win :D
Namii [8d\]: cause their team is solid 6 dans
Finnish8d [-\]: Czechia has no goal now
Namii [8d\]: I believe our 3-4 boards have no chance
Namii [8d\]: ah true!
Finnish8d [-\]: so I am guessing at least Simara will not play
Finnish8d [-\]: possibly also Silt will not
Namii [8d\]: they are in no matter what
Prodigious [-\]: sure, i'll play the last round
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
Namii [8d\]: even if romania 4-0
Finnish8d [-\]: ok nice ^^
Namii [8d\]: great :)
Prodigious [-\]: i might be able to get some gor
Namii [8d\]: and minimal loss anyway
Prodigious [-\]: yeah
Finnish8d [-\]: ok so i will sign you up on wiki then ^^
Prodigious [-\]: sure
Namii [8d\]: all right, thx Jeff
Namii [8d\]: let's close this
]
;B[hk]
;W[hl]
;B[hm]
;W[im]
;B[gl]
;W[gf]
;B[hg]
;W[fc]
;B[hp]
;W[jp]
;B[ed]
;W[fd]
;B[hc]
;W[gb]
;B[hb]
;W[hq]
;B[nf]
;W[nh]
;B[ie]
;W[mf]
;B[me]
;W[lf]
;B[le]
;W[kf]
;B[rc]
;W[ha]
;B[ia]
;W[ga]
;B[jb]
;W[ke]
;B[kd]
;W[jr]
;B[je]
;W[rp]
;B[ki]
;W[lh]
;B[dd]
;W[cb]
;B[eq]
;W[er]
;B[fr]
;W[fq]
;B[es]
;W[ep]
;B[ds]
;W[eq]
;B[of]
;W[sq]
;B[sr]
;W[sp]
;B[rr]
;W[sc]
;B[sb]
;W[sd]
;B[gr]
;W[hr]
;B[fs]
;W[ho]
;B[go]
;W[gp]
;B[rb]
;W[jl]
;B[jg]
;W[pe]
;B[od]
;W[kh]
;B[jh]
;W[ao]
;B[bp]
;W[ks]
;B[ek]
;W[oq]
;B[pq]
;W[or]
;B[nr]
;W[ns]
;B[mr]
;W[ls]
;B[pr]
;W[js]
;B[os]
;W[gc]
;B[kq]
;W[kp]
;B[gi]
;W[fh]
;B[ij]
;W[el]
;B[ng]
;W[mg]
;B[og]
;W[oh]
;B[kg]
;W[lg]
;B[ge]
;W[fe]
;B[gd]
;W[hf]
;B[he]
;W[oe]
;B[ne]
;W[if]
;B[ig]
;W[ms]
;B[jj]
;W[hl]
;B[fk]
;W[sl]
;B[il]
;W[ap]
;B[aq]
;W[an]
;B[kk]
;W[jm]
;B[qd]
;W[ef]
;B[hs]
;W[is]
;B[cs]
;W[bb]
;B[fo]
;W[dm]
;B[hl]
;W[gs]
;B[ag]
;W[hs]
;B[ae]
;W[jf]
;B[af]
;W[no]
;B[oo]
;W[am]
;B[]
;W[]
;B[])
(;B[kj]C[Namii [8d\]: next pull this out to help the shape a bit
Namii [8d\]: but I still wonder
]))
(;B[nh]
;W[oh]))
(;B[nh]
;W[oh]
;B[mi]
;W[oi]
;B[ln]
;W[io]
;B[jm]
;W[in]C[Finnish8d [-\]: cos in the following game b tried to kill w left side
Finnish8d [-\]: this way supplies more forcing moves
Prodigious [-\]: yes
Finnish8d [-\]: for the dream
]))
(;B[oi]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I was wondering when watching
Finnish8d [-\]: if b may do P8 that super ugly way to live
])
(;B[ol]C[Namii [8d\]: hahahaha
]
(;W[ml]C[Finnish8d [-\]: S9
]
;B[rk]LB[mj:x]C[Namii [8d\]: that's better for b
Finnish8d [-\]: ^^
Namii [8d\]: cutting point remains for white
])
(;W[pl]
;B[pk]
;W[rk]C[Namii [8d\]: I'd imagine w cannot dare to do it? :P
Finnish8d [-\]: not sure, w might
Namii [8d\]: huh
Namii [8d\]: how can b handle this one?
]
(;B[rj]C[Finnish8d [-\]: and b dare not cut
]
;W[sk]C[Finnish8d [-\]: so has to go with N8
])
(;B[ml]
;W[nm]
;B[mj]
;W[lk]
;B[oi]
;W[ni]
;B[oh]
;W[ph]
;B[lj]
;W[kj]C[Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
Finnish8d [-\]: so still cannot do it
]))))
(;B[qi]C[Namii [8d\]: just something but
Finnish8d [-\]: to beg for a living
Namii [8d\]: b probably may live on the inside
Namii [8d\]: but yes, exactly, 'beg'
Namii [8d\]: once w seals black perfectly on the outside in sente, it's the same as game over
Finnish8d [-\]: but if that is realistic, b has to take it
]
;W[oi]C[Namii [8d\]: I guess even this w will not dare to Q9 if we P9?
]
;B[ok]
;W[nk]
;B[rj]C[Namii [8d\]: well anyway, soemthing like this
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah ok
Finnish8d [-\]: this will still be a game at least
Namii [8d\]: at least game can continue for a while
Namii [8d\]: once b just dies, it's over
Finnish8d [-\]: b gained at bottom, lose in the centre is reasonable
]))
(;B[nj]C[Finnish8d [-\]: if like this
Namii [8d\]: but L2 was dreaming :P
Finnish8d [-\]: looks good
Namii [8d\]: yeah
Namii [8d\]: cause b kept a big corner, and Q10 survives
Namii [8d\]: so to me L2 is the final losing move
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
]))
(;B[no]C[Namii [8d\]: can b play something like this now?
Finnish8d [-\]: with K3 present
Finnish8d [-\]: difficult
Namii [8d\]: w fights back most likely
])
(;B[oo]LB[pn:A]C[Finnish8d [-\]: yeah has to do something relatively soft
Namii [8d\]: maybe here then? to avoid A
Finnish8d [-\]: I'd do this
Namii [8d\]: I guess w will cease fighting too much now
Namii [8d\]: can't pull out the R6 stone well anymore
Finnish8d [-\]: and I agree that w O4 is not a harsh way
Namii [8d\]: and it turns O4 into ab ad move
]))
(;W[on]C[Namii [8d\]: I'll probably just ujmp
Finnish8d [-\]: necessary
Prodigious [-\]: yeah
]))
(;W[qn]C[Namii [8d\]: two moves in a row is good enough for me
Finnish8d [-\]: he has worries on his left side group
Namii [8d\]: since b at least can't do anything against E12 with just 1 move
Namii [8d\]: yeah 
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah I know ^^
]
;B[ai]
;W[on]C[Finnish8d [-\]: of course w can tenuki
Finnish8d [-\]: left side cannot die yet
Namii [8d\]: but like this w completely destroys this area for black
Namii [8d\]: just wonder if it's more valuable for white 
Namii [8d\]: good result from the picnic ko anyway
Finnish8d [-\]: that is possible I'd say
])
(;W[gk]C[Namii [8d\]: hmm
Namii [8d\]: you suggested this?
Finnish8d [-\]: as from his logic, this is a better order ^^
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah, cos I am following his logic
Prodigious [-\]: yeah, better to play this directly for sure
Namii [8d\]: I don't like this exchange, cause now b can afford to answer ^^
Namii [8d\]: but
Namii [8d\]: hmm
]
;B[fk]
;W[ch]
;B[ae]
;W[ad]
;B[bh]C[Finnish8d [-\]: then w will win the ko
]
;W[em]
;B[ai]
;W[fm]
;B[gl]TR[dq][gq][jq][dr]C[Namii [8d\]: w task is to connect there
Namii [8d\]: where b has forcing moves
Namii [8d\]: so I think this is better for b than the game
Prodigious [-\]: i don't think the timing error in the top right actually affected anything btw
Prodigious [-\]: this game variation could happen even if b played joseki
Namii [8d\]: ah, true
Namii [8d\]: cause b can S14 after Q11
Prodigious [-\]: w should just eat at s13 directly instead of q11
Prodigious [-\]: probably
Namii [8d\]: right
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah that is correct
]))
(;B[ai]C[Namii [8d\]: this is realistic
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
Namii [8d\]: I don't think that ko is :P
Namii [8d\]: picnic for w
Namii [8d\]: but
Finnish8d [-\]: still the main problem is at F10
Finnish8d [-\]: after that b just insisted
Namii [8d\]: yeah
]
;W[dh]
(;B[bi])
(;B[cg]C[Namii [8d\]: or maybe here too
Namii [8d\]: but then f10 is wasted
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
Finnish8d [-\]: and game continues
Finnish8d [-\]: it is a loss, but has to take it
Namii [8d\]: so b tried to follow logic
Finnish8d [-\]: right
])))
(;B[qc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: sure
Namii [8d\]: Timing error there
]))
(;B[cg]C[Namii [8d\]: so I agree on this ^^
]
;W[af]C[Finnish8d [-\]: then get out
]
;B[gf]C[Namii [8d\]: Yes
]))
(;B[ec]C[Namii [8d\]: So I wonder about order
Finnish8d [-\]: And yes, this is bigger
Namii [8d\]: should b force here first?
Namii [8d\]: then w cannot choose B13 just yet
Namii [8d\]: and yeah, big too
]))
(;W[fc]C[Namii [8d\]: low one here I guess
Finnish8d [-\]: sure
Prodigious [-\]: should be
Finnish8d [-\]: that is noraml
Namii [8d\]: yeah, can't w anyway do B13 if he wants to? :P
Namii [8d\]: hurts corner
Namii [8d\]: but why is B13 critical anyway
Namii [8d\]: ah right there was some cutting issue
])))
