(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2] RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00] DT[2014-04-15]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Pandanet Go European Team Championship 2013/2014 League A 2013/2014 - Round 8 Finland vs. Israel 2 – 2 (0110) Antti on board 1 lost by forfeit due to technical difficulties. Namii [8d\]: Hi yo Finnish8d [-\]: hi ^^ snowman [-\]: ni hao Finnish8d [-\]: Alright so I will comment Namii's and Prodi's probably ^^ ]MULTIGOGM[1] (;B[qd]C[White: Ofer Zivony, 4 dan Black: Juri Kuronen, 6 dan Result: B+13.5 ] ;W[dc] ;B[pp] ;W[dp] ;B[oc] ;W[qn] ;B[nq]C[Namii [8d\]: I'll have a quick toilet break Finnish8d [-\]: sure ^^ ] ;W[rp]C[Namii [8d\]: took a long hassle to get the .sgf done :D ] ;B[qm] ;W[pm] ;B[ql] ;W[pn] ;B[qq] ;W[pi] ;B[qj] ;W[ok] (;B[pj]C[Namii [8d\]: Yeah, that's why I had to turn back to S6 ] ;W[oj] ;B[oi]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I wonder if this is a reasonable fight, to me this fight looks pretty negative, since b still needs moves to live inside. Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah, so to me you'd rather just live low on the right ] ;W[mp] ;B[mq] ;W[qi] ;B[ri] ;W[rh] ;B[rj] ;W[pg] ;B[ni] ;W[qe] ;B[pe] ;W[qf] ;B[pd] ;W[ng] ;B[rn] ;W[ro] ;B[sm] ;W[op] ;B[np]C[Finnish8d [-\]: And this is an obvious mistake to me Namii [8d\]: I decided to give it to him in sente, because he hurt his own position in the process Finnish8d [-\]: cos this means w fixes the cutting point in sente Finnish8d [-\]: but I mean ] ;W[oo] ;B[oq]LB[oo:3][np:4][op:1][oq:2]C[Namii [8d\]: but in retrospect sente is important so I agree on P3 ^^ Finnish8d [-\]: This is like you played move 4 yourself Namii [8d\]: hmm... Namii [8d\]: true Finnish8d [-\]: is that really important? Namii [8d\]: So simple mistake :P Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah, that is why I said it is an obvious mistake ] ;W[mk] ;B[mh] ;W[mg] ;B[kh] ;W[jg]C[Namii [8d\]: What the heck is this :P Finnish8d [-\]: And this is w overplay, sure :P Finnish8d [-\]: I felt difficult until w played this move, when watching the game ] ;B[kk] ;W[jh] ;B[ki] ;W[km] ;B[lf] ;W[lg] ;B[kg] ;W[kf] ;B[le] ;W[jf] ;B[ji] ;W[rd] ;B[rc] ;W[oh]C[Finnish8d [-\]: So probably you'd attack w inside right away then? Namii [8d\]: Yeah Finnish8d [-\]: ok : ) ] ;B[of] ;W[qh]C[Namii [8d\]: I missed R12 Finnish8d [-\]: Here I read for long Namii [8d\]: but still the position is not bad for me I think ] (;B[hi]C[Namii [8d\]: normally it dies but S10 is too weak, funnily :P Namii [8d\]: but still this is good for b, no? Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah it is Namii [8d\]: actually if I kill, I still must finish the kill Namii [8d\]: and w gets center stones Finnish8d [-\]: after w overplay at K13 Namii [8d\]: so I think letting w live is better Finnish8d [-\]: also L7 is also kinda overplay Namii [8d\]: cause H11 is such an important move Namii [8d\]: Yeah, definitely Finnish8d [-\]: with wrong shape, it is definitely an easy game to b ] ;W[kd] ;B[ld] ;W[im] ;B[nm]C[Namii [8d\]: but I saw I can connect all my groups, so I went for it Finnish8d [-\]: Ok I see Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah to me it is a bit too early to do this ] ;W[mn]C[Namii [8d\]: O7 is probably too hasty ] ;B[og] ;W[nh] ;B[mj] ;W[se] ;B[po] ;W[qo] ;B[ol]C[Namii [8d\]: This is again a game where I had trouble 'getting into it' ] ;W[pl]C[Finnish8d [-\]: ok ] ;B[pk] ;W[nn] ;B[nk] ;W[jq] ;B[gd]C[Namii [8d\]: it's because past several months, I couldn't focus on go, but now it's getting easier again Finnish8d [-\]: And yes this is bigger than K3 Namii [8d\]: Yeah ] ;W[id] ;B[gf] ;W[fe] ;B[ge] ;W[kc]C[Namii [8d\]: because he is 4d and makes these sort of mistakes, it ends up looking like I had no problem ] (;B[hc]C[Namii [8d\]: but in fact several questionable moves Namii [8d\]: H17 too :P ] ;W[mb] ;B[lc] ;W[lb] ;B[jb] ;W[ib]C[Namii [8d\]: this should be M17 ] ;B[ic] ;W[jc] ;B[qb] ;W[hb]C[Namii [8d\]: isntead of N18 ] ;B[rg] ;W[rf] ;B[sh]C[Namii [8d\]: but no big difference ] ;W[sg]C[Namii [8d\]: now the funny part ] ;B[sf] ;W[nd]C[Namii [8d\]: hehe Finnish8d [-\]: yeah Namii [8d\]: actually ti's not a ko ;P ] ;B[nc] ;W[sg] ;B[gb] ;W[ja] ;B[sf] ;W[mc] ;B[ne] ;W[sg] (;B[de]C[Namii [8d\]: he can at anytime play R13 Namii [8d\]: but both of us missed it Finnish8d [-\]: So you know that all the time? :P Namii [8d\]: no Namii [8d\]: like I said, it was a double bluff Namii [8d\]: :D snowman [-\]: both of you? Finnish8d [-\]: I see ^^ Namii [8d\]: this game reminded me of B league Finnish8d [-\]: That is hard to believe, since it is so simple :P Namii [8d\]: cause all my games in B league were like that Finnish8d [-\]: Israel is a B league team actually Finnish8d [-\]: I mean, its strength Namii [8d\]: 13.5. is the last round, I will be in shape by then Finnish8d [-\]: ok nice ^^ snowman [-\]: check Finnish8d [-\]: Just to tell in advance: as my calculation and prediction, we still need 1 more game win Namii [8d\]: Yes ^^ Finnish8d [-\]: so 1:3 is ok Namii [8d\]: with 0 wins, we need extremely good luck Finnish8d [-\]: yeah Finnish8d [-\]: and here Finnish8d [-\]: wonder if you'd approach low? ] ;W[fc] ;B[sf] ;W[me] ;B[md] ;W[sg] ;B[gc] ;W[si] ;B[cc]C[Namii [8d\]: so again good for b, I got this for free :P Finnish8d [-\]: ok now I finally understand the story on the right side ^^ ] ;W[cd]C[Namii [8d\]: it was quite silly.. ] ;B[dd] ;W[bc] ;B[cb] ;W[ce] ;B[cf] ;W[bf] ;B[df] ;W[bg] ;B[ha] ;W[kb] ;B[bb] ;W[cj] (;B[cl]C[Finnish8d [-\]: And do you really need this? Namii [8d\]: you will just C3? Finnish8d [-\]: b has so many points, I'd just take sansan to win Finnish8d [-\]: yeah Namii [8d\]: Right Namii [8d\]: that's safer Finnish8d [-\]: right, I don't want to risk it ^^ ] ;W[cn] ;B[bi] ;W[ci] ;B[bj] ;W[bh] ;B[ck] ;W[dh] ;B[ek]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Still sharp and good going here ] ;W[bd] ;B[ac] ;W[ab] ;B[ec] ;W[gh] ;B[dq] ;W[eq] ;B[cp] ;W[do] ;B[cr] ;W[er] ;B[bo] ;W[bn] ;B[bq] ;W[fj] ;B[gl] ;W[em] ;B[fk] ;W[gj] ;B[gn] ;W[fm] ;B[gm] ;W[ik] ;B[fo] ;W[ep] ;B[dm] ;W[dn]C[Finnish8d [-\]: so you have to exchange that earlier Namii [8d\]: so G4 is a miss Namii [8d\]: maybe here D10? Finnish8d [-\]: yeah that is what I meant ] (;B[gp]C[Namii [8d\]: instead of E8 ] ;W[dl] ;B[cm]C[Namii [8d\]: then he can cap the stones at C8 ] (;W[en]C[Namii [8d\]: here Namii [8d\]: so D9 Namii [8d\]: anyway, he missed his fianl chance ] ;B[el]C[Namii [8d\]: he should D9 ] ;W[gk] ;B[fl] ;W[ho] ;B[bm] ;W[an] ;B[am]C[Namii [8d\]: B7 is also a miss, I should live cleaner Finnish8d [-\]: yeah, so after that mostly byoyomi mistakes Namii [8d\]: yep Finnish8d [-\]: B7 is ok Namii [8d\]: I think we got the main points for this one Finnish8d [-\]: A7 is not necessary Namii [8d\]: isn't? Namii [8d\]: ahhh Namii [8d\]: I see ^^ Finnish8d [-\]: ^^ Namii [8d\]: so directly D2 Finnish8d [-\]: yeah Finnish8d [-\]: then it is done ] ;W[hq] ;B[dr]C[Finnish8d [-\]: still, after you get D2, it is done Namii [8d\]: Yep Finnish8d [-\]: alright, so we may turn to Prodi's Namii [8d\]: Yeah Finnish8d [-\]: that is an easy win ] ;W[rr] ;B[rq] ;W[sq] ;B[qr] ;W[lr] ;B[mr] ;W[lq] ;B[mo] ;W[lp] ;B[no] ;W[om] ;B[nl] ;W[lo] ;B[on] ;W[oo] ;B[hn] ;W[io] ;B[fp] ;W[mf] ;B[od] ;W[ao] ;B[bp] ;W[ms] ;B[ns] ;W[ls] ;B[sr] ;W[ss] ;B[ps] ;W[pa] ;B[aa] ;W[ad] ;B[hp] ;W[gq] ;B[ip] ;W[jp] ;B[in] ;W[jn] ;B[jl] ;W[jk] ;B[kl] ;W[il] ;B[lm] ;W[mm] ;B[ml] ;W[ln] ;B[ll] ;W[lh] ;B[li] ;W[mi] ;B[nj] ;W[ff] ;B[fd] ;W[fh] ;B[dj] ;W[di] ;B[ej] ;W[ai] ;B[ak] ;W[hh] ;B[jm] ;W[ii] ;B[ij] ;W[ih] ;B[jj] ;W[hj] ;B[kn] ;W[jo] ;B[iq] ;W[ir] ;B[fr] ;W[fq] ;B[es] ;W[gr] ;B[fs] ;W[gs] ;B[ds] ;W[ab] ;B[ee] ;W[ba] ;B[db] ;W[gg] ;B[eg] ;W[fg] ;B[ie] ;W[ke] ;B[nd] ;W[ei] ;B[pb] ;W[oa] ;B[qa] ;W[nb] ;B[ob] ;W[na] ;B[cg] ;W[ch] ;B[sc] ;W[if] ;B[hf] ;W[sj] ;B[sk] ;W[sh] ;B[sd] ;W[re] ;B[ko] ;W[kp] ;B[km] ;W[ah] ;B[aj] ;W[hg] ;B[ca] ;W[sp] ;B[rm] ;W[ac] ;B[nf] ;W[ph] ;B[mh] ;W[qs] ;B[rs] ;W[go] ;B[fn] ;W[qs] ;B[or] ;W[sr] ;B[rs] ;W[aa] ;B[qs] ;W[mi] ;B[ga] ;W[ia] ;B[mh] ;W[rk] ;B[sl] ;W[mi] ;B[op] ;W[on] ;B[mh] ;W[je] ;B[he] ;W[mi] ;B[ka] ;W[la] ;B[mh] ;W[ef] ;B[dg] ;W[mi] ;B[hm] ;W[hk] ;B[mh] ;W[bk] ;B[bl] ;W[mi] ;B[hd] ;W[mh] ;B[jd] ;W[lj] ;B[kj] ;W[id] ;B[be] ;W[ae] ;B[jd] ;W[ap] ;B[aq] ;W[id] ;B[af] ;W[ag] ;B[jd] ;W[br] ;B[bs] ;W[id] ;B[jr] ;W[js] ;B[jd] ;W[as] ;B[ar] ;W[id] ;B[dk] ;W[jd] ;B[eo] ;W[kr] ;B[] ;W[] ;B[]) (;W[dk]C[Finnish8d [-\]: and a false eye, I see Finnish8d [-\]: yes ] (;B[dj] ;W[el] ;B[ej] ;W[en] ;B[eh]C[Namii [8d\]: I believe I have no other option ]) (;B[el] ;W[dj] ;B[en] ;W[bm] ;B[bk] ;W[hq]C[Namii [8d\]: cause can that b group get two eyes? Finnish8d [-\]: this is risky ]))) (;B[dj] (;W[dl] ;B[ei]C[Namii [8d\]: don't think w can hold b like this ]) (;W[di] (;B[en]) (;B[gp]C[Namii [8d\]: so like this, huh Finnish8d [-\]: yeah now it works ])))) (;B[cq])) (;B[ce]C[Finnish8d [-\]: since you're attacking the corner Finnish8d [-\]: I mean, to be reasonable ^^ Namii [8d\]: very puzzling why I didn't Finnish8d [-\]: hehe ok ])) (;B[lc]C[Namii [8d\]: Yep Finnish8d [-\]: To me still block is bigger Namii [8d\]: I thought R18 is sente... Finnish8d [-\]: so force him to live towards the komoku stone Namii [8d\]: soon we'll see something funny :D Finnish8d [-\]: Ah ok Namii [8d\]: Yeah Finnish8d [-\]: I was wondering in the game Namii [8d\]: hehe... Finnish8d [-\]: that why you didn't do T17 Namii [8d\]: I bluffed, opponent believed it, so did I :D Namii [8d\]: Yeah has to be that one Finnish8d [-\]: hehe ok ])) (;B[rg] (;W[rf]C[Finnish8d [-\]: w will answer this way, right? Namii [8d\]: I read T14 Finnish8d [-\]: I know you read a lot in the game ]) (;W[sf] ;B[sd]C[Namii [8d\]: and then I'll lose the semeai ] ;W[og] ;B[sh] ;W[sg] ;B[rf] ;W[si] ;B[re]C[Namii [8d\]: s8 ] ;W[rl]C[Namii [8d\]: I can make it a bad ko only ] ;B[rk] ;W[pk] ;B[sl] ;W[sj] ;B[qg] ;W[qk] ;B[sk] ;W[sh]C[Finnish8d [-\]: alright get it ]))) (;B[qi] ;W[ph] ;B[rg]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I may just simply live under and get points. Namii [8d\]: ok back ^^ Finnish8d [-\]: ok, what do you think? Namii [8d\]: Hehe, yes I considered it, but I thought the fighting is reasonable since I had the shimari to back it Finnish8d [-\]: Ok I see Namii [8d\]: This felt just a bit low Namii [8d\]: but actually black's territory is nice Finnish8d [-\]: I doubt it mainly for your inside group owes a move to live ])) (;B[qd]C[White: Juuso Nyyssönen, 5 dan Black: Reem Ben-David, 3 dan Result: W+Resign Namii [8d\]: his opponent did nothing ] ;W[dp] ;B[dc] ;W[qp] ;B[cn] ;W[fq] ;B[ch] ;W[od] ;B[oc] ;W[nc] ;B[pc] ;W[nd] ;B[qf] ;W[jd] ;B[hc] ;W[fc]C[Namii [8d\]: Eerika said that Namii [8d\]: he and Juuso were looking at this move earlier in a pro game Namii [8d\]: and Juuso wanted to try it Namii [8d\]: I've seen similar ideas a lot recently ^^ Finnish8d [-\]: aha ok I see Namii [8d\]: pros are getting more direct Namii [8d\]: black completely failed handling this move Finnish8d [-\]: I am not sure if this will turn to a positive result Namii [8d\]: so after that it's already Juuso's game :P Namii [8d\]: Yeah Finnish8d [-\]: while watching I was hesitating on this ] (;B[he]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah that is what I will do as b Finnish8d [-\]: go back there please ] ;W[dd] ;B[cd] ;W[cc] ;B[bc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: yeah this atari is already very wrong ] ;W[cb] ;B[db] ;W[bb] ;B[ed] ;W[de] ;B[ec] (;W[ee] ;B[fd]C[Finnish8d [-\]: just w turn is unecessary Namii [8d\]: already white's game :P ] ;W[ce] ;B[jb] ;W[ng] ;B[pi] ;W[ck] ;B[cp] ;W[cq] ;B[do] ;W[bp] ;B[bo] ;W[co] ;B[ni] ;W[cp] ;B[me]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I was thinking about to play on the right hand first Namii [8d\]: my instinct is probably to keima with M14 Namii [8d\]: but if you can get a good forcing move on the right hand side ] (;W[ld]C[snowman [-\]: what about D15 instead of the H15 Namii [8d\]: This is again puzzling :P ] (;B[le] ;W[ke]C[Finnish8d [-\]: in the game this happened, looks good now Namii [8d\]: yeah ] ;B[kc] ;W[lf] ;B[mf] ;W[mg] ;B[kd] ;W[lg]C[Namii [8d\]: and again b took another loss on the lower left Namii [8d\]: when he got nothing severe out of the kothreat O11 Finnish8d [-\]: also I don't understand why b didn't atari L14 all the time Finnish8d [-\]: that will kill w a move ] ;B[md] ;W[mc] ;B[lc] ;W[pg] ;B[qg] ;W[li]C[Namii [8d\]: M11 is nice ] ;B[lk] ;W[jj] ;B[dk] ;W[cl] ;B[jk] ;W[ij] ;B[kj] ;W[ki] ;B[ik] ;W[hj] ;B[hk] ;W[gj] ;B[dj] ;W[cm] ;B[fl] ;W[oq]C[Finnish8d [-\]: yeah here tenuki again, very clear Namii [8d\]: F8 is worth nothing Finnish8d [-\]: so w lives, w wins Namii [8d\]: cause be fails his next attempt too Namii [8d\]: hehe Namii [8d\]: impossible to kill that ^^ ] ;B[hh] ;W[ih] ;B[ig] ;W[jh] ;B[np] ;W[op]C[Namii [8d\]: and definitely not H12 ] ;B[no] ;W[oo]C[Namii [8d\]: i you want to try Finnish8d [-\]: right ] ;B[on] ;W[pn] ;B[pm] ;W[qm] ;B[om] ;W[ql] ;B[ip] ;W[mr]C[Finnish8d [-\]: And I guess there is nothing more after Namii [8d\]: yeah, resign shortly Finnish8d [-\]: in general just too easy ^^ Namii [8d\]: hehe Finnish8d [-\]: w did in general nice and clear Finnish8d [-\]: alright Namii [8d\]: very Prodi'ish ^^ Finnish8d [-\]: and would you take the last game maybe? Namii [8d\]: sure ] ;B[lq] ;W[mq] ;B[lp] ;W[go]) (;B[of]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Actually not sure what w may do if b just seperate Finnish8d [-\]: so in the game Namii [8d\]: but I wonder what he had in mind now Finnish8d [-\]: I just don't know what he plans to do if b keima Finnish8d [-\]: to me it is difficult Finnish8d [-\]: and K18 is a perfect position Finnish8d [-\]: if b has keima here, what is your plan next? Prodigious [-\]: haha, i wonder Finnish8d [-\]: because this is one when watching, that I have worried about Prodigious [-\]: m16 was probably not too good Finnish8d [-\]: so I didn't like your M16 Finnish8d [-\]: right ok ])) (;W[lf] ;B[le] ;W[kf] ;B[lc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: That is also my instinct Namii [8d\]: too easy for b, huh Finnish8d [-\]: but I doubt if w can handle it Namii [8d\]: w cannot find the next move easily Finnish8d [-\]: guess not Finnish8d [-\]: yeah Finnish8d [-\]: so I didn't consider this one Finnish8d [-\]: to me it is a move on the right hand ]) (;W[pe]) (;W[pg]C[Finnish8d [-\]: probably has to be something relatively ugly Finnish8d [-\]: but fix it ]) (;W[pd]C[Finnish8d [-\]: maybe this one first Prodigious [-\]: yeah, something like this makes sense Prodigious [-\]: force with q14 etc Finnish8d [-\]: was thinking about to get some moves on this area first Finnish8d [-\]: yeah exactly Finnish8d [-\]: then ok, I guess everything in this game is clear then Finnish8d [-\]: right? Prodigious [-\]: nothing too interesting happened later yeah Namii [8d\]: ok, back to Mikko's? :P Finnish8d [-\]: yeah I guess Finnish8d [-\]: so you may take over ] ;B[qc] ;W[pf] ;B[pg] ;W[og]C[Namii [8d\]: prodi doesn't like these sort of things usually, so I understand his M16 Finnish8d [-\]: ok ])) (;W[ce]C[Namii [8d\]: Right Finnish8d [-\]: that aji is b trouble ])) (;B[de]LB[fc:3][hc:4][jd:1][de:2]C[Namii [8d\]: juuso's plan is to H16 directly or D18 first? Namii [8d\]: maybe H16 directly Namii [8d\]: wait a sec Finnish8d [-\]: To me 3 is the one that is less reasonable Namii [8d\]: I'll ask Juuso to join us for a moment Namii [8d\]: if he replies Finnish8d [-\]: sure snowman [-\]: white wall is sligthly useless Finnish8d [-\]: yeah, doesn't help any for this fight Namii [8d\]: I guess prodi is afk Finnish8d [-\]: ok Finnish8d [-\]: so we move on then? Namii [8d\]: Yeah, he can maybe join us later Namii [8d\]: and we'll come back to this Finnish8d [-\]: ok Namii [8d\]: you can have controls again ^^ Finnish8d [-\]: So we were wondering your opinion on this Prodigious [-\]: ah yeah, not completely sure what i was going to do Finnish8d [-\]: Ah ok Finnish8d [-\]: so logically Prodigious [-\]: in pro games they were playing e16 instead of d15 Finnish8d [-\]: 1 and 2 are both reasonable Finnish8d [-\]: 3 is too close to b shimari shape snowman [-\]: database has e16 or k17 instead of d15 Finnish8d [-\]: so b invasion next is reasonable Finnish8d [-\]: locally seems like 3 is the one that is unreasonable, only Prodigious [-\]: sure Finnish8d [-\]: Ah ok Prodigious [-\]: i had just seen it in a pro game and it looked fun, so i played it Finnish8d [-\]: with K16 stone there? Prodigious [-\]: i haven't really analyzed it too much Prodigious [-\]: yeah Finnish8d [-\]: yeah Namii mentioned that ^^ Namii [8d\]: well, pros already turned over several 'conventional fuseki logics' Namii [8d\]: wouldn't be a first :P Finnish8d [-\]: ok : ) ] ;W[hd] ;B[id]) (;B[jc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: This I can understand ]) (;B[ed] ;W[fd] ;B[he]C[Finnish8d [-\]: E16 probably means this snowman [-\]: yeah Finnish8d [-\]: so pro games don't agree with D15 choice then :P Prodigious [-\]: yea Finnish8d [-\]: ok get it, have to think about it later ^^ Finnish8d [-\]: and another to prodi ])) (;B[pd]C[White: Maayan Blum, 2 dan Black: Mikko Siukola, 4 dan Result: W+22.5 ] ;W[dc] ;B[pp] ;W[dq] ;B[do] ;W[cm] ;B[cq] ;W[gq] ;B[dp] ;W[dr] ;B[cn] ;W[dl] ;B[cr] ;W[jq] ;B[ck]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Too hurry Namii [8d\]: ah, prodi is here Finnish8d [-\]: Ah prodi is here Prodigious [-\]: yo Namii [8d\]: shall we discuss a bit? Finnish8d [-\]: sure Namii [8d\]: This move is very much Mikko's style :P ] ;W[bn] ;B[bo] ;W[dn] ;B[co] ;W[dk]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I see, i have no idea about Mikko's style ^^ Finnish8d [-\]: I will just say it is way too early Namii [8d\]: Yeah, I wouldn't do it either Namii [8d\]: w shouldn't mind this fighting ] ;B[ci] ;W[cj]C[Finnish8d [-\]: right, a negative fight to b ] ;B[bj] ;W[dj] ;B[bl] ;W[bm] ;B[di] ;W[ei] ;B[dg] ;W[eh] ;B[ce] ;W[cd] ;B[de]C[Finnish8d [-\]: but it doesn't really worth a move ] (;W[be]LB[bg:A]C[Namii [8d\]: w played this hane because he had that special idea snowman [-\]: that's greedy, isn't it Namii [8d\]: but did he really need the hane Finnish8d [-\]: I didn't get it Namii [8d\]: he wants to play A later Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah I know ] ;B[bf] ;W[bd] (;B[en] ;W[bg]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Just C13 Finnish8d [-\]: let it Namii [8d\]: Yeah, Finnish8d [-\]: E6 is in case if b wanna attack, but it is hard to attack w that group anyway ] (;B[cf]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I remember in the game, there is something on the left side Namii [8d\]: hmm Namii [8d\]: in the game w tenukid to R14 Finnish8d [-\]: yeah, cos he has gained already Finnish8d [-\]: E10 is no longer a cutting point Namii [8d\]: yes, F17 doesn't feel that big now ] ;W[qf] ;B[nc] ;W[rd] ;B[qg] ;W[pg] ;B[qh] ;W[pf] (;B[rf]C[Namii [8d\]: Ah.. ] ;W[re] ;B[qc] ;W[pi] ;B[qj] ;W[rg]C[Namii [8d\]: so w can take care of it like this and already lives :P Finnish8d [-\]: yeah ] ;B[rh] ;W[sf] ;B[fj]C[Namii [8d\]: So mikko's troubles started here Namii [8d\]: because he missed that b11 Finnish8d [-\]: and this is a mistake for sure Namii [8d\]: yeah ] ;W[bi] ;B[bh] ;W[ch] (;B[dh] ;W[ah]C[Finnish8d [-\]: or, refuse to admit a mistake ] ;B[cg] ;W[ej] ;B[fl] ;W[cl] ;B[bk] ;W[af] ;B[bh]C[Finnish8d [-\]: like this it is already very hard to b, cos w is actually alive Namii [8d\]: can w continue "normal go"? ] (;W[em]C[Finnish8d [-\]: just difficult for w to think that way ] ;B[fm]C[Finnish8d [-\]: luckily in the game w was pretty generous Namii [8d\]: yeah this kind of a threat costs :P Namii [8d\]: w wants to win the ko no matter what Finnish8d [-\]: yeah ] ;W[ch] ;B[ae] ;W[ad] ;B[bh] ;W[fn] ;B[eo] ;W[ch] ;B[aj] ;W[al] ;B[bh] ;W[gk]C[Namii [8d\]: so one way street until here Finnish8d [-\]: and this is a relatively small price to pay Finnish8d [-\]: w should have asked this first Namii [8d\]: ok, anyway Namii [8d\]: this ko is 'too simple' Finnish8d [-\]: yeah Namii [8d\]: limited ways it can end up Namii [8d\]: in any case w gains, cause the ko on the left was a picnic ko ] ;B[ai] ;W[fk] ;B[gn]C[Finnish8d [-\]: now back to a game Namii [8d\]: right Finnish8d [-\]: to me it is still ok Namii [8d\]: yeah Namii [8d\]: but w is leading Namii [8d\]: I guess that's why b also played here Finnish8d [-\]: sure, just limited ] ;W[qn]C[Namii [8d\]: to me this is too severe :P Finnish8d [-\]: it is Namii [8d\]: that's why I doubt G6 Finnish8d [-\]: Ah ok Namii [8d\]: whether b should face this kind of fight Finnish8d [-\]: well b is still thinking about to attack w centre Namii [8d\]: yep ] ;B[pj]C[Finnish8d [-\]: also not to play G6 means to admit everything he did on the left is wrong Namii [8d\]: hehe Prodigious [-\]: b has a very distant dream Namii [8d\]: well, straightforward continuation Namii [8d\]: except ] (;W[np]C[Namii [8d\]: hmm Namii [8d\]: maybe this could be too easy ] (;B[pn] ;W[pm] ;B[on] ;W[qp]C[Prodigious [-\]: even the way b played it in the game felt a bit easy for b Prodigious [-\]: but then he refused to live with his group Namii [8d\]: yeah Namii [8d\]: that L2 ] ;B[qq] ;W[qo] ;B[op] ;W[om] ;B[rl]C[Namii [8d\]: b needs this kind of sabaki now ^^ ] ;W[rm] ;B[ql] ;W[qm] ;B[rq]C[Namii [8d\]: this is very big, yes ] ;W[nn] ;B[nq] ;W[mp] ;B[mq] ;W[lq] ;B[lr] ;W[lp] (;B[kr] ;W[oj]C[Namii [8d\]: so ] (;B[ok] ;W[nj] ;B[nk] ;W[mk] (;B[nl] ;W[nm] ;B[ml] ;W[ll] ;B[lk] ;W[mj] ;B[lm] ;W[kl] ;B[mm] ;W[km] ;B[kn] ;W[jn] ;B[oi] ;W[ph] ;B[mn]C[Namii [8d\]: and afterwards no chances ] ;W[mo]C[Finnish8d [-\]: w did it all correct after ] ;B[jo] ;W[ko] ;B[lj] ;W[ni]C[Finnish8d [-\]: so it is done here actually Namii [8d\]: yes, finishing blow ^^ Finnish8d [-\]: b should have asked O12 though, at least Prodigious [-\]: yeah, w found o11 unfortunately ] (;B[ln] ;W[io] ;B[jm] ;W[in] ;B[pk] ;W[rk] ;B[il] ;W[jk] ;B[hj]C[Namii [8d\]: right Namii [8d\]: huge diff here Namii [8d\]: if b has O12 ] ;W[li]C[Finnish8d [-\]: yeah ] ;B[gj] ;W[gh] (;B[hh] ;W[ff] (;B[gg]C[Namii [8d\]: too crude ] ;W[fg] ;B[ec] ;W[eb] ;B[kj] ;W[ik]C[Finnish8d [-\]: it cannot be done Namii [8d\]: ah yeah, simple Namii [8d\]: ok Namii [8d\]: I guess that's it ^^ Namii [8d\]: only 3 games Finnish8d [-\]: right Namii [8d\]: I'll try to clean up the commentary a bit Finnish8d [-\]: Prodi will play the last round right? Finnish8d [-\]: yeah please, thanks buddy. : ) Namii [8d\]: Prodi: we need 1 win :P Finnish8d [-\]: We still need one more win Namii [8d\]: you'd increase our chances a lot Namii [8d\]: " a lot" Namii [8d\]: we may go from 20% to 30% of getting 1 win :D Namii [8d\]: cause their team is solid 6 dans Finnish8d [-\]: Czechia has no goal now Namii [8d\]: I believe our 3-4 boards have no chance Namii [8d\]: ah true! Finnish8d [-\]: so I am guessing at least Simara will not play Finnish8d [-\]: possibly also Silt will not Namii [8d\]: they are in no matter what Prodigious [-\]: sure, i'll play the last round Finnish8d [-\]: yeah Namii [8d\]: even if romania 4-0 Finnish8d [-\]: ok nice ^^ Namii [8d\]: great :) Prodigious [-\]: i might be able to get some gor Namii [8d\]: and minimal loss anyway Prodigious [-\]: yeah Finnish8d [-\]: ok so i will sign you up on wiki then ^^ Prodigious [-\]: sure Namii [8d\]: all right, thx Jeff Namii [8d\]: let's close this ] ;B[hk] ;W[hl] ;B[hm] ;W[im] ;B[gl] ;W[gf] ;B[hg] ;W[fc] ;B[hp] ;W[jp] ;B[ed] ;W[fd] ;B[hc] ;W[gb] ;B[hb] ;W[hq] ;B[nf] ;W[nh] ;B[ie] ;W[mf] ;B[me] ;W[lf] ;B[le] ;W[kf] ;B[rc] ;W[ha] ;B[ia] ;W[ga] ;B[jb] ;W[ke] ;B[kd] ;W[jr] ;B[je] ;W[rp] ;B[ki] ;W[lh] ;B[dd] ;W[cb] ;B[eq] ;W[er] ;B[fr] ;W[fq] ;B[es] ;W[ep] ;B[ds] ;W[eq] ;B[of] ;W[sq] ;B[sr] ;W[sp] ;B[rr] ;W[sc] ;B[sb] ;W[sd] ;B[gr] ;W[hr] ;B[fs] ;W[ho] ;B[go] ;W[gp] ;B[rb] ;W[jl] ;B[jg] ;W[pe] ;B[od] ;W[kh] ;B[jh] ;W[ao] ;B[bp] ;W[ks] ;B[ek] ;W[oq] ;B[pq] ;W[or] ;B[nr] ;W[ns] ;B[mr] ;W[ls] ;B[pr] ;W[js] ;B[os] ;W[gc] ;B[kq] ;W[kp] ;B[gi] ;W[fh] ;B[ij] ;W[el] ;B[ng] ;W[mg] ;B[og] ;W[oh] ;B[kg] ;W[lg] ;B[ge] ;W[fe] ;B[gd] ;W[hf] ;B[he] ;W[oe] ;B[ne] ;W[if] ;B[ig] ;W[ms] ;B[jj] ;W[hl] ;B[fk] ;W[sl] ;B[il] ;W[ap] ;B[aq] ;W[an] ;B[kk] ;W[jm] ;B[qd] ;W[ef] ;B[hs] ;W[is] ;B[cs] ;W[bb] ;B[fo] ;W[dm] ;B[hl] ;W[gs] ;B[ag] ;W[hs] ;B[ae] ;W[jf] ;B[af] ;W[no] ;B[oo] ;W[am] ;B[] ;W[] ;B[]) (;B[kj]C[Namii [8d\]: next pull this out to help the shape a bit Namii [8d\]: but I still wonder ])) (;B[nh] ;W[oh])) (;B[nh] ;W[oh] ;B[mi] ;W[oi] ;B[ln] ;W[io] ;B[jm] ;W[in]C[Finnish8d [-\]: cos in the following game b tried to kill w left side Finnish8d [-\]: this way supplies more forcing moves Prodigious [-\]: yes Finnish8d [-\]: for the dream ])) (;B[oi]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I was wondering when watching Finnish8d [-\]: if b may do P8 that super ugly way to live ]) (;B[ol]C[Namii [8d\]: hahahaha ] (;W[ml]C[Finnish8d [-\]: S9 ] ;B[rk]LB[mj:x]C[Namii [8d\]: that's better for b Finnish8d [-\]: ^^ Namii [8d\]: cutting point remains for white ]) (;W[pl] ;B[pk] ;W[rk]C[Namii [8d\]: I'd imagine w cannot dare to do it? :P Finnish8d [-\]: not sure, w might Namii [8d\]: huh Namii [8d\]: how can b handle this one? ] (;B[rj]C[Finnish8d [-\]: and b dare not cut ] ;W[sk]C[Finnish8d [-\]: so has to go with N8 ]) (;B[ml] ;W[nm] ;B[mj] ;W[lk] ;B[oi] ;W[ni] ;B[oh] ;W[ph] ;B[lj] ;W[kj]C[Finnish8d [-\]: yeah Finnish8d [-\]: so still cannot do it ])))) (;B[qi]C[Namii [8d\]: just something but Finnish8d [-\]: to beg for a living Namii [8d\]: b probably may live on the inside Namii [8d\]: but yes, exactly, 'beg' Namii [8d\]: once w seals black perfectly on the outside in sente, it's the same as game over Finnish8d [-\]: but if that is realistic, b has to take it ] ;W[oi]C[Namii [8d\]: I guess even this w will not dare to Q9 if we P9? ] ;B[ok] ;W[nk] ;B[rj]C[Namii [8d\]: well anyway, soemthing like this Finnish8d [-\]: yeah ok Finnish8d [-\]: this will still be a game at least Namii [8d\]: at least game can continue for a while Namii [8d\]: once b just dies, it's over Finnish8d [-\]: b gained at bottom, lose in the centre is reasonable ])) (;B[nj]C[Finnish8d [-\]: if like this Namii [8d\]: but L2 was dreaming :P Finnish8d [-\]: looks good Namii [8d\]: yeah Namii [8d\]: cause b kept a big corner, and Q10 survives Namii [8d\]: so to me L2 is the final losing move Finnish8d [-\]: yeah ])) (;B[no]C[Namii [8d\]: can b play something like this now? Finnish8d [-\]: with K3 present Finnish8d [-\]: difficult Namii [8d\]: w fights back most likely ]) (;B[oo]LB[pn:A]C[Finnish8d [-\]: yeah has to do something relatively soft Namii [8d\]: maybe here then? to avoid A Finnish8d [-\]: I'd do this Namii [8d\]: I guess w will cease fighting too much now Namii [8d\]: can't pull out the R6 stone well anymore Finnish8d [-\]: and I agree that w O4 is not a harsh way Namii [8d\]: and it turns O4 into ab ad move ])) (;W[on]C[Namii [8d\]: I'll probably just ujmp Finnish8d [-\]: necessary Prodigious [-\]: yeah ])) (;W[qn]C[Namii [8d\]: two moves in a row is good enough for me Finnish8d [-\]: he has worries on his left side group Namii [8d\]: since b at least can't do anything against E12 with just 1 move Namii [8d\]: yeah Finnish8d [-\]: yeah I know ^^ ] ;B[ai] ;W[on]C[Finnish8d [-\]: of course w can tenuki Finnish8d [-\]: left side cannot die yet Namii [8d\]: but like this w completely destroys this area for black Namii [8d\]: just wonder if it's more valuable for white Namii [8d\]: good result from the picnic ko anyway Finnish8d [-\]: that is possible I'd say ]) (;W[gk]C[Namii [8d\]: hmm Namii [8d\]: you suggested this? Finnish8d [-\]: as from his logic, this is a better order ^^ Finnish8d [-\]: yeah, cos I am following his logic Prodigious [-\]: yeah, better to play this directly for sure Namii [8d\]: I don't like this exchange, cause now b can afford to answer ^^ Namii [8d\]: but Namii [8d\]: hmm ] ;B[fk] ;W[ch] ;B[ae] ;W[ad] ;B[bh]C[Finnish8d [-\]: then w will win the ko ] ;W[em] ;B[ai] ;W[fm] ;B[gl]TR[dq][gq][jq][dr]C[Namii [8d\]: w task is to connect there Namii [8d\]: where b has forcing moves Namii [8d\]: so I think this is better for b than the game Prodigious [-\]: i don't think the timing error in the top right actually affected anything btw Prodigious [-\]: this game variation could happen even if b played joseki Namii [8d\]: ah, true Namii [8d\]: cause b can S14 after Q11 Prodigious [-\]: w should just eat at s13 directly instead of q11 Prodigious [-\]: probably Namii [8d\]: right Finnish8d [-\]: yeah that is correct ])) (;B[ai]C[Namii [8d\]: this is realistic Finnish8d [-\]: yeah Namii [8d\]: I don't think that ko is :P Namii [8d\]: picnic for w Namii [8d\]: but Finnish8d [-\]: still the main problem is at F10 Finnish8d [-\]: after that b just insisted Namii [8d\]: yeah ] ;W[dh] (;B[bi]) (;B[cg]C[Namii [8d\]: or maybe here too Namii [8d\]: but then f10 is wasted Finnish8d [-\]: yeah Finnish8d [-\]: and game continues Finnish8d [-\]: it is a loss, but has to take it Namii [8d\]: so b tried to follow logic Finnish8d [-\]: right ]))) (;B[qc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: sure Namii [8d\]: Timing error there ])) (;B[cg]C[Namii [8d\]: so I agree on this ^^ ] ;W[af]C[Finnish8d [-\]: then get out ] ;B[gf]C[Namii [8d\]: Yes ])) (;B[ec]C[Namii [8d\]: So I wonder about order Finnish8d [-\]: And yes, this is bigger Namii [8d\]: should b force here first? Namii [8d\]: then w cannot choose B13 just yet Namii [8d\]: and yeah, big too ])) (;W[fc]C[Namii [8d\]: low one here I guess Finnish8d [-\]: sure Prodigious [-\]: should be Finnish8d [-\]: that is noraml Namii [8d\]: yeah, can't w anyway do B13 if he wants to? :P Namii [8d\]: hurts corner Namii [8d\]: but why is B13 critical anyway Namii [8d\]: ah right there was some cutting issue ])))