(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[Veivi]PB[Finnish8d]WR[5d]DT[2014-09-28]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]
;B[qd]
;W[dp]
;B[pq]
;W[dc]
;B[kc]
;W[po]
;B[qm]
;W[qq]
;B[qp]
;W[pp]
;B[qo]
;W[qn]
;B[pn]
(;W[rn]
;B[rq]
;W[qr]
;B[ro]
(;W[rm]C[Tien [-\]: Probably p3 and s7 are both okay
Finnish8d [-\]: to me this is good
]
;B[oq]C[Tien [-\]: Ok :)
Tien [-\]: Hmm
]
;W[np]
;B[rr]
;W[ql]
;B[pm]
;W[pl]
;B[nm]
(;W[nn]LB[op:A]C[Tien [-\]: White A is superior shape here :)
Tien [-\]: O6 looks like good shape, but actually only weakens the other white group
Veivi [5d\]: mm, yeah
Tien [-\]: Well, it's probably not a big mistake, but makes white's defense slower
Finnish8d [-\]: ok
]
;B[ol]
;W[pj]
;B[ok]
;W[qh]
;B[ln]
;W[lp]
;B[jo]
;W[jq]
;B[mr]
;W[jp]
;B[ko]
;W[lr]
;B[mq]
;W[lo]
;B[io]
;W[hp]C[Tien [-\]: Jeff said up to here from o6 it's perfect?
Finnish8d [-\]: to me yes
Tien [-\]: Alright
]
;B[pi]
;W[qj]
;B[oj]C[Finnish8d [-\]: this is what I designed best version for w
]
(;W[ph]C[Tien [-\]: Something about this shape feels off...
]
;B[oi]C[Finnish8d [-\]: small difference ^^
Tien [-\]: Yeah, you're right
]
;W[qf]
;B[od]LB[rg:A][gn:B][fp:D][gp:C]C[Finnish8d [-\]: To me so far w did well
Tien [-\]: Just, this way there's still something annoying at around A
Tien [-\]: I'd prefer to make a perfect shape right away
Tien [-\]: These possible future problems are a bit annoying
Tien [-\]: Imagining the B-C exchange for black in sente is a bit annoying for white too
Tien [-\]: If we can imagine anything in the centre for black
Tien [-\]: So that B area is kind of a pivotal point for shape
Tien [-\]: Well, actually..
Tien [-\]: Black D is the move, no?
]
(;W[mn]C[Finnish8d [-\]: ok
]
;B[mm]LB[oj:A]TR[lm][kn]C[Finnish8d [-\]: but current circumstances don't support it yet
Finnish8d [-\]: so just leave it please ^^
Veivi [5d\]: yea... it soon became obvious that i should have : )
Finnish8d [-\]: I'd prefer to take w if w just tenuki
Finnish8d [-\]: ^^
Tien [-\]: That black A is probably the last group you'd want to fight against on this board position :)
]
;W[lm]
;B[kn]
;W[km]C[Finnish8d [-\]: this is the 1st big one
Tien [-\]: And I guess the main talk is here, Jeff want to say anything? :)
Finnish8d [-\]: probably the only big one
Tien [-\]: Was too slow
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah well
Finnish8d [-\]: that is a problem to b
]
;B[jl]
;W[ho]
;B[jm]C[Tien [-\]: Actually, even this loss is not too big
Tien [-\]: Since white kept sente
]
(;W[df]C[Tien [-\]: D14 goes to nullify black's centre influence, but I don't see how black could make the centre bigger
Tien [-\]: Yeah, probably
]
;B[cq]
;W[dq]
;B[cp]
;W[cn]
;B[co]
;W[do]
;B[bn]
;W[ic]
;B[fc]
;W[gd]
;B[cc]
;W[dd]
;B[db]
;W[eb]
;B[cb]
;W[fb]
;B[be]
;W[mc]
;B[ob]
;W[qe]LB[rg:C][rl:B][sn:A]C[Tien [-\]: The bad thing for black was that the A-B exchange removes all aji for C
Tien [-\]: So basically after r15, it becomes playable for black
Veivi [5d\]: yeah
]
;B[pd]
(;W[ng]C[Finnish8d [-\]: R15 is annoying.
Finnish8d [-\]: :D
Tien [-\]: Hehe
Tien [-\]: Yeah, o13 is emphasising the centre too much, too
Finnish8d [-\]: but well to be fair
]
;B[dr]
;W[er]
;B[cr]
;W[dn]
;B[bm]LB[mb:E][lc:A][kd:B][ld:D][me:C]C[Tien [-\]: So usual "don't play close to thickness" would have worked wonders here as a playing principle
Tien [-\]: I guess m3 is the biggest point?
Finnish8d [-\]: it is
Tien [-\]: Hmm, upper side too...
RoadRunner [4d\]: m16 isnt big enough?
Tien [-\]: Could consider A-B-C too
Finnish8d [-\]: as w, right
Tien [-\]: I'm a bit concerned about white D's shape
Tien [-\]: Imagine black E as a response, for instance
Finnish8d [-\]: probably that makes it a bit more uncertain
Finnish8d [-\]: so w should take it
Tien [-\]: Hmm, I guess we've seen all there is about this game?
Tien [-\]: All important, anyway
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah sure
Finnish8d [-\]: now it is all ^^
Veivi [5d\]: yep
Tien [-\]: Alright, let's hope we have more people next time
Tien [-\]: When the timing is also better
Finnish8d [-\]: ^^
Tien [-\]: I'll upload this file in suomigo
Finnish8d [-\]: Ok thanks ^^
RoadRunner [4d\]: hmm, when was this supposed to start?
]
(;W[mh]C[Finnish8d [-\]: cos there are just too many huge choices
]
;B[sn]
;W[rl]LB[sn:A]C[Tien [-\]: Lastly this was just my obsession, but black A shouldn't be allowed :)
Tien [-\]: 1 1/3 points in double sente
Tien [-\]: Means a 2 2/3 points absolute loss
Veivi [5d\]: but loses ko threat! might be 25 points :D
Finnish8d [-\]: :D
Tien [-\]: Double sente is above ko threats :)
]
;B[lc]
;W[md]
;B[mb]
;W[nq]
;B[nr]
;W[op]
;B[pr]
;W[on]
;B[om]
;W[lq]
;B[cg]
;W[kk]
;B[kl]
;W[lk]
;B[ll]
;W[jb]LB[ke:A][lm:D][mm:C][mn:B]C[Tien [-\]: Alright, shall I control or?
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah please
Tien [-\]: Ah, first
Tien [-\]: What's Veivi's judgment on the situation here?
Finnish8d [-\]: you can see the game clearer 
Veivi [5d\]: i feel like i'm slightly behind, maybe 8 points or so, but it's not hopeless
Veivi [5d\]: need some points in the center somehow
Tien [-\]: It's probably a bit more actually, I'm getting 20 points difference on the board
Tien [-\]: But that may be just a bit pessimistic for white
Finnish8d [-\]: w does have a bit potential in the centre
Tien [-\]: The l7 stones were kind of expensive
Tien [-\]: Yeah
Tien [-\]: But black may jump A now in response
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah that is my next
Tien [-\]: So actually that's mostly nullified
Tien [-\]: And left side is also black potential
Tien [-\]: But okay, let's see from start
Tien [-\]: Hmm, but yeah, overall a nice, solid game
Tien [-\]: The B-C-D cutting attempt was the only real thing that cost a lot for white
Veivi [5d\]: righty
Tien [-\]: Jeff have anything to add?
Finnish8d [-\]: I doubt on O13, N12 choices
Tien [-\]: Right, me too
])
(;B[mh]LB[ji:A][ki:C][li:D][jj:E][kj:B][jk:F]C[Finnish8d [-\]: as w I will do my best to keep balance
Veivi [5d\]: yeah, me caring about the b center a whole lotwas a definite theme for this game
Tien [-\]: And it's not like black'd go play n12 there either
Tien [-\]: If black plays like this, it basically means like white can exchange A-B-C-D-E-F in sente
Tien [-\]: Meaning that while black does get gote territory, white gets outer influence in compensation
Tien [-\]: Or n12 is kind of a wasted move
Tien [-\]: This is basically why you don't "surround territory with thickness"
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
])
(;W[lc]
;B[kd]
;W[me]C[RoadRunner [4d\]: could w focus on getting a good outside, instead of actually trying to kill?
]
;B[id]C[Veivi [5d\]: A B C was my plan originally, but somehow diverted from it to play a stupid kosumi
Tien [-\]: Well, black's sbaki is not hard
]
;W[hd]LB[lc:A][kd:B][me:C]C[RoadRunner [4d\]: but if outside isnt valuable, then why o13?
Tien [-\]: Yeah, I proposed A-B-C instead of it, too
]
;B[ib]C[Tien [-\]: This is another "annoying move"?
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah it is :P
Finnish8d [-\]: standing at w position
]
(;W[ie]C[Tien [-\]: Have to go above
Tien [-\]: The defense would be too painful
Tien [-\]: Ah, hmm
Tien [-\]: Black may even just connect?
]
;B[hc]C[Tien [-\]: Well, maybe this is better
]
;W[jd]C[Tien [-\]: Ah, no, this is impossible
]
;B[gc]
;W[ec]
(;B[fd]C[Tien [-\]: White here?
Finnish8d [-\]: ah nope
Finnish8d [-\]: this is fine to w right?
Finnish8d [-\]: w just hane
Finnish8d [-\]: to me it is a game
Tien [-\]: Ah, okay
]
;W[fe])
(;B[ke]C[Tien [-\]: So get out instead
])
(;B[jc]
(;W[ke]
;B[id]
;W[je])
(;W[id]
;B[kf]C[Tien [-\]: I guess it has to be something like this
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah ok
Tien [-\]: RoadRunner, the outside doesn't value much in this game
Finnish8d [-\]: just get out in general
Tien [-\]: That black centre influence means that there is nothing for either player in the centre, nothing too valuable at least
Tien [-\]: Finally black will make maybe 10-15 points there
])))
(;W[hc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: K15
])))
(;W[lc]
;B[kd]
;W[me]C[Tien [-\]: Maybe direction-wise this is more interesting?
Finnish8d [-\]: starting from C3 Veivi was playing with me ^^
Finnish8d [-\]: before that I tried to be Romanian opponent
Tien [-\]: Ah, ok :)
]
;B[kf]
;W[mg]LB[gc:A]C[Finnish8d [-\]: ah this way
Tien [-\]: This'd look more natural for me for reducing the centre
Tien [-\]: And also some of the upper side
Tien [-\]: Though a small concern is if there's something with A
Tien [-\]: Well, for now seems it's fine
Finnish8d [-\]: right
]
;B[gc]
;W[hc]
;B[fd]
;W[fe]
;B[gb]
;W[ec]
;B[ee]
;W[ff]C[Tien [-\]: Very barely :)
Finnish8d [-\]: ^^
]))
(;W[co]LB[km:A]C[Tien [-\]: But I guess there's no choice but take this corner next, then
Tien [-\]: Territorially losing A is expensive, so white will have to try to keep the balance there
])
(;W[ce]C[Tien [-\]: Speaking about the upper left corner, isn't c15 preferable?
Tien [-\]: Well, maybe it's a small thing again
Finnish8d [-\]: Veivi emphasized a bit too much to b centre, that is my impression
]))
(;W[ho]C[Tien [-\]: Push here is maybe good?
Finnish8d [-\]: yes
Tien [-\]: Still keeping eyes on the cut, but not going at it immediately
Finnish8d [-\]: that could be annoying situation, I don't know how to continue as b
Tien [-\]: Well, black probably plays elsewhere too
Tien [-\]: Hehe
Tien [-\]: Try to annoy white back with c3, maybe
Finnish8d [-\]: I might do, but cutting point is in my mind still.
Tien [-\]: Any move in the centre would feel like not trying hard enough
Finnish8d [-\]: And yes that is what w should do
]
;B[jl]LB[jm:F][km:E][lm:C][mm:B][kn:D][mn:A]C[Finnish8d [-\]: to me enough to make b in lead
Tien [-\]: Yeah, probably
Tien [-\]: But it's like black played k8 and then we imagine the bad exchange with A-F
Finnish8d [-\]: yes
])
(;B[fp]
;W[ho]
;B[fn]C[Finnish8d [-\]: hehe my mood is not bad today, so didn't consider that :D
Tien [-\]: This looks scary for white, actually :)
Tien [-\]: Fighting is easy for black, since in the worst case scenario he'll just sacrifice the k5 stones
]
;W[hm]
;B[dn]
;W[mn]
;B[lm]
;W[mm]
;B[ll]
;W[ml]
;B[lk]C[Finnish8d [-\]: yeah I get point ^^
Tien [-\]: Not sure if even this is promising for white
Tien [-\]: Probably not
]
;W[mk]
;B[lj]
;W[mj]
;B[mi]))
(;W[qg]LB[so:A][rp:B]C[Tien [-\]: Just extend is better, no?
Tien [-\]: And maybe exchange A-B before that
]))
(;W[op]
;B[ol]C[Tien [-\]: Anyway, black needs this
]
(;W[nq]C[Tien [-\]: And white gets o3 in sente
Tien [-\]: Hmm, actually...
])
(;W[so]C[Tien [-\]: Atari first, of course
]
;B[rp]
;W[nq]
(;B[pr]
;W[or]
;B[qs]C[Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
]
;W[pj]
;B[ok]
;W[qh]
;B[kp]
;W[lo]C[Tien [-\]: It's this kind of a fight, right?
Finnish8d [-\]: that is textbook joseki
Finnish8d [-\]: yes
])
(;B[rk]C[Tien [-\]: So I was wondering if black'd try this trick move :)
Tien [-\]: One of those Romanian internet players certainly might
]
;W[rl]
;B[pj]LB[qj:A][qk:E][or:B][pr:D][qs:C]C[Tien [-\]: White answering anything like A now is getting tricked, since black prevents white q10
Tien [-\]: But how to win the capturing race?
snowman [-\]: i think it's quite well known
Finnish8d [-\]: hehe I didn't, until Antti told me earlier :P
snowman [-\]: :)
Tien [-\]: I only learned of this recently, too
Tien [-\]: I may have heard of this five years ago or so, but promptly forgot
Tien [-\]: White B, black C, white D and black E and white loses, right?
snowman [-\]: i wouldn't dare to play this even against a 3d
Tien [-\]: Yeah, usually you'd not want to try trick moves at all
]
;W[qs]C[snowman [-\]: ehem
Tien [-\]: So anyway, white r1 wins
Tien [-\]: You as in the you-passive
]
(;B[rs]
;W[or]
;B[qk]
;W[sn])
(;B[sn]
;W[sm]
;B[qk]C[Tien [-\]: I guess this ko is the best black can get?
Finnish8d [-\]: sure
Tien [-\]: This could actually be tough on white if black had threats
Tien [-\]: So in that sense, a good "trick" to know
Finnish8d [-\]: ah block first you will need
Tien [-\]: S1?
Finnish8d [-\]: ah ok
Tien [-\]: Ah yeah, that's a better one
Tien [-\]: But ko anyway
Finnish8d [-\]: so you mean this ko
Finnish8d [-\]: have to think, small difference
Tien [-\]: Well, it's not important actually :)
Tien [-\]: Back to the actual game
])))))
(;W[oq]C[Tien [-\]: Jeff, what would you have done here?
Tien [-\]: S7 as normal?
Finnish8d [-\]: well to me S7 is right
Tien [-\]: Hehe
Tien [-\]: I was wondering if you were planning to play s2 now :)
Finnish8d [-\]: this way it is a bit hard to choose the right side move in the future, right?
Finnish8d [-\]: ah nope :P
]
;B[rm]
;W[on]
;B[pm]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I am not that territorial :P
Tien [-\]: Isn't htis kind of standard?
]
;W[pf]C[Tien [-\]: *this
]
;B[od]
;W[qe]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I just follow your instrcutions ^^
Tien [-\]: Righty :)
]
;B[rd]
;W[pi]C[Finnish8d [-\]: So like this there will be fight 
Tien [-\]: Yeah, true
]))
(;W[oq]C[Tien [-\]: I guess this is too slow for this game?
Finnish8d [-\]: ah
Finnish8d [-\]: then I have no choice but to take?
]
;B[pr]C[Tien [-\]: Maybe go down first
]
(;W[qr]
;B[rn]
;W[or]C[Tien [-\]: Some aji with p4 for later
Finnish8d [-\]: ok
]
;B[pg]C[Finnish8d [-\]: so w cannot do S6 right away
Tien [-\]: So something like this?
Tien [-\]: It's possible
Tien [-\]: But usually not so promising
Veivi [5d\]: this kind of development was something i was trying to avoid
])
(;W[rn]C[Tien [-\]: Veivi, right, thought so :)
Tien [-\]: It's a good plan alright
]
;B[rq]
;W[rp]
;B[qr]
;W[ro]
;B[qq]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I don't know the outcome, but the upcoming squeezing is annoying 
Tien [-\]: The next shape is hard to figure out though
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
Tien [-\]: Probably overplay by white
Finnish8d [-\]: Alright get it ^^
Tien [-\]: Well okay, back to game
])))
