(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
DT[2014-10-26]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]
(;B[pd]C[White: Javier-Aleksi Savolainen
Black: Su Yang]
;W[dp]
;B[qp]
;W[dd]
;B[fq]
;W[cn]
;B[op]
;W[jp]
;B[pj]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Ergo: w needs to E3 instead of N3, in this fuseki situation : )
]
(;W[mq]C[Tien [-\]: I wondered why not e3 here for white?
Tien [-\]: Black answers f4 anyway, then white could get n3 now
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: e3 more powerful since k4 has more space?
]
(;B[fc]
;W[nc]
;B[cf]
;W[df]
;B[dg]
;W[ef]
;B[cd]
;W[ce]
;B[be]
;W[de]
;B[bg]
;W[cc]
;B[bd]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I wouldn't take E13
Finnish8d [-\]: yes
]
(;W[eg]
;B[dh]C[Tien [-\]: Oota, e3 is always powerful, no? :)
ErgoProxy [5d\]: can u show some variations at the bottom
Tien [-\]: With white c6 there
]
;W[id]
;B[pf]
(;W[pb]C[Tien [-\]: Ah, I see
Finnish8d [-\]: E3 was the biggest all the time
Tien [-\]: Probably something around q18 lacks firmness
Tien [-\]: And yeah, e3 was supposed to be taken a long time ago
Tien [-\]: Q18 actually, when I think about it, doesn't work with the other white position on the upper side
]
(;B[kc]
;W[ic]
;B[qc]
;W[ld]C[Tien [-\]: Sente is big, yeah
Finnish8d [-\]: that is the problem
Tien [-\]: So here
Finnish8d [-\]: yes
]
;B[ib]C[Tien [-\]: And yeah, I guess d2 instead would be normal :)
Finnish8d [-\]: it is, so if I were b (not the 4d), I'd leave the top side but go D2
Finnish8d [-\]: and w owes a move on the top side
Finnish8d [-\]: I thought Eastern European 4d, likely will play things directly, so I did J18 :P
ErgoProxy [5d\]: not sure where white went wrong then
Tien [-\]: There shouldn't be such a big reason this white is structure bad, though
]
(;W[jb]C[Finnish8d [-\]: yeah sure ^^
Tien [-\]: I didn't have time to read here, so hane other side is bad?
Tien [-\]: Black lives under huh
ErgoProxy [5d\]: w still gets first move at the bottom
]
;B[hb]
;W[jc]
;B[db]
;W[dc]
;B[cb]C[Finnish8d [-\]: then L16 and M17, more painful to w
Tien [-\]: Still, doesn't white get ripped off here?
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah, so to me J17 was problematic
Tien [-\]: But in the g15 region, there's a huge cut for later too
Tien [-\]: That's hardly any white centre influence
Finnish8d [-\]: I'd rather say it is naturally hard to manage this top side
Finnish8d [-\]: so if I were w
]
(;W[dq]
;B[nr]
;W[mo]
;B[hp]C[ErgoProxy [5d\]: it´s harder to catch black after that
ErgoProxy [5d\]: so I didn´t like it
]
;W[iq]
;B[hn]TR[de][df][ef][eg]C[Finnish8d [-\]: to me this way b is relatively more comfortable
Tien [-\]: There's more space to move around in, at least
Tien [-\]: And white cannot join those stones in the fight quite so easily
]
;W[hq]
;B[gq]
;W[mr]
;B[bc]C[Tien [-\]: B17 to me is way too early :)
Tien [-\]: But nevermind
]
;W[ck]
;B[dm]
;W[cm]
;B[nn]
;W[ql]
;B[qj]
;W[qo]C[Finnish8d [-\]: yeah it is ^^
]
;B[po]
;W[qn]
;B[rp]
;W[ol]
;B[mm]
;W[nk]
;B[ni]
;W[lk]
;B[km]
;W[ki]
;B[mf]C[Tien [-\]: Aha, okay, I see
Tien [-\]: So like this black has enough?
Finnish8d [-\]: I feel like it
Tien [-\]: Hmm, how to conclude
Tien [-\]: The opening game is the main deal, right?
Finnish8d [-\]: yes
]
;W[kf]
;B[fe]
;W[gd]
;B[fd]
;W[gf]
;B[mj]
;W[mk]
;B[kj]
;W[lj]
;B[li]
;W[jl]
;B[jj]
;W[oi]
;B[oj]
;W[kl]
;B[kh]
;W[ji]
;B[ij]
;W[jh]
;B[hl]
;W[hi]
;B[hj]
;W[jm]
;B[jo]
;W[lm]
;B[ko]
;W[io]C[Tien [-\]: Alright
Tien [-\]: What's the situation here?
Finnish8d [-\]: I am gonna cut
Finnish8d [-\]: then I have no idea
Tien [-\]: J4?
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
Tien [-\]: ok, messy fight
ErgoProxy [5d\]: yeah agree
Tien [-\]: How's the territory balance?
Tien [-\]: Imagining nothing much happens in the following fight and everything lives
Tien [-\]: Black seems to have quite a lot
Finnish8d [-\]: I felt comfortable, but I have to do as an Eastern European 4d, so I did the last fight :P
Tien [-\]: So white has to try for an attack?
Tien [-\]: Hehe
])
(;W[eq]C[Tien [-\]: Thought also e3 here :)
]
;B[fp]C[Tien [-\]: Hmm
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah this is what I have expected
Tien [-\]: Ok
]
;W[hp]
;B[fn]
;W[dl]C[Tien [-\]: Of course black won't die, but isn't it also awkward for black to run?
]
;B[fl]
;W[fi]C[ErgoProxy [5d\]: maybe
Tien [-\]: What would Jeff think would happen?
]))
(;W[hb]C[Tien [-\]: Is this side really so bad?
]
(;B[jb]
;W[kd]C[Finnish8d [-\]: ah b will push first
])
(;B[kd]
;W[ke]C[Finnish8d [-\]: M17 now
]
(;B[jb]C[Finnish8d [-\]: then M17
]
;W[je]
;B[lc]
;W[md]C[Tien [-\]: Do you live?
Finnish8d [-\]: sorry the order is odd
])
(;B[lc]
;W[md]C[Finnish8d [-\]: hane
]
;B[je]C[Finnish8d [-\]: and finally K18
]
(;W[kf]C[Finnish8d [-\]: aha
Tien [-\]: I'm not sure, just trying to play the shape
Finnish8d [-\]: well K18 still
]
;B[jb]
;W[ie]C[Finnish8d [-\]: so now b can O18
]
;B[nb]
;W[ob]
;B[mb]
;W[od]C[Finnish8d [-\]: yes
ErgoProxy [5d\]: g18
]
;B[gb]
;W[hc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Not sure about that
]
;B[ha]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I may just live
Finnish8d [-\]: so to leave D17
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: dont those get cut off?
ErgoProxy [5d\]: anyways it doesn´t look good for w
Tien [-\]: The k15 cutting area is a bit problematic
Tien [-\]: If not for that, white would be fine
])
(;W[jb]C[Tien [-\]: Can I take here?
Finnish8d [-\]: hehe probably the best : )
Finnish8d [-\]: then b gets out sure
Tien [-\]: Yeah, this looks playable for white
Tien [-\]: No matter what fighting follows
Tien [-\]: Well, let's leave it, we'll be hard-pressed for time
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah I agree J18 is too early : )
Tien [-\]: Jeff, if you don't mind, can you do the reviews overtime a bit?
Finnish8d [-\]: sure
Tien [-\]: I have a NGA lecture starting 13:00
Tien [-\]: Ok, good
Finnish8d [-\]: I know
])))))
(;B[dr]
;W[gq]
;B[gp]
;W[hq]
;B[cq]
;W[fr]
;B[eq]C[Finnish8d [-\]: no I mean, I'd leave J18 but turn to bottom
Tien [-\]: Ah, okay
]))
(;W[kd]C[Tien [-\]: Shouldn't it be this or jump instead, usually?
Finnish8d [-\]: I guess Assu doesn't like it, after picking J16
Tien [-\]: Hmm
Tien [-\]: But then when black does come in, white finds it hard to profit reasonably
]))
(;W[ec]C[Tien [-\]: Thought so
Tien [-\]: So as not to invest too early in the cloud business
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
Tien [-\]: Yeah, that seems better
ErgoProxy [5d\]: aha
Tien [-\]: So upper side and e3 about this game
Tien [-\]: Let's go on to Werfe's
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: how does skipping e13 work?
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: like what are the alternative continuations w now has
Finnish8d [-\]: just to leave the peep
Tien [-\]: E13 is to get white more liberties and influence
Tien [-\]: But e17 makes white's group thick in one go
Tien [-\]: In which case there's no longer need to play e13, too, since it thickens black
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: hmm, ok
]))
(;B[dr]C[Tien [-\]: If it wasn't an European 4d, black d2 would be painful for white
]
;W[gq]
;B[gp]
;W[hq]
;B[cq]C[Tien [-\]: Black lives easy enough like this
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: tien, sure, just saying its better than usual because k4 not under pressure like it would normally be in that situation?
Tien [-\]: I guess white logically needs f2 next?
ErgoProxy [5d\]: you said kosumitsuke is best?
Tien [-\]: Oota, yeah, I guess that's why white did k4 first
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah hane f2 sure
]
;W[fr]
;B[bo]C[Tien [-\]: And slide here?
]
;W[eq]C[Tien [-\]: And something like this?
]))
(;W[eq]
;B[fp]
;W[mq]C[Tien [-\]: Can do the rest the same, even
ErgoProxy [5d\]: ok
Tien [-\]: Harder for black to live with points
]))
(;B[pd]C[White: Antti Törmänen
Black: Jesse Savo]
;W[dp]
;B[oq]
;W[dd]
;B[fq]
;W[cn]C[Werfeus [5d\]: o/
]
;B[mc]
;W[hq]C[Tien [-\]: Aight
Tien [-\]: I'll be just for six minutes, and Jeff will pick from there
]
;B[jq]
;W[fp]
(;B[ep]
;W[eo]C[Finnish8d [-\]: right
]
;B[eq]
;W[dq]
;B[gp]
;W[fo]
;B[gq]C[pokale [2d?\]: w is pro?
]
;W[qo]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Ah so you mean w H6?
Werfeus [5d\]: hm.. no, this is fine for w.
Finnish8d [-\]: ok : )
]
;B[oo]
;W[qq]LB[ql:A]C[Tien [-\]: Normally I think white plays A instead
Tien [-\]: Well, r3 might be possible, but black is obviously going for a lower-side structure
Finnish8d [-\]: ok? to me sansan is good : )
Tien [-\]: I mean, planning-wise
Finnish8d [-\]: ah ok
Tien [-\]: If white looked at what black is doing
]
;B[pm]
;W[rm]
;B[hn]
;W[ql]C[nemo04 [?\]: "Finnish 7-dan, Nihon Ki-in insei"
Satellizer [2d\]: Antti 7d egf (gor 1p)
Tien [-\]: And normally r8 is probably early, too :)
]
;B[fc]
;W[df]
;B[id]
;W[db]
;B[pl]
;W[pk]
;B[ok]
;W[oj]
;B[pj]
;W[qk]
;B[nk]
;W[pi]
;B[nj]
;W[oi]
;B[hl]C[Tien [-\]: I guess usually we'd say that the black moyo formation is good if there's no aji
]
;W[kq]
;B[mq]
;W[di]C[gogonuts [5d\]: h8 at c12, imo
gogonuts [5d\]: w d11 is painful for b
]
;B[ck]
;W[ci]C[gogonuts [5d\]: c9 shows regret
enufo3 [2k\]: Werfeus' pictures never fail to put a smile on my face
]
;B[cm]C[gogonuts [5d\]: instead of c9 r15 i think - but now b had to continue 
]
;W[bn]
;B[hj]C[gogonuts [5d\]: still miai ur and left invasion, not so good for b that these are now of roughly equal value
gogonuts [5d\]: that looks like a good move
gogonuts [5d\]: working on breaking the miai
Tien [-\]: Jeff, what do you think up to here?
Finnish8d [-\]: To me w is fine
Finnish8d [-\]: this moyo is not so scary at all
Finnish8d [-\]: but
Finnish8d [-\]: L3-N3, w lost points
Finnish8d [-\]: because of P2
Werfeus [5d\]: i thanked
Tien [-\]: Righty
]
;W[iq]C[Tien [-\]: And actually this one, too
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
Tien [-\]: Sincec h2 could mean d2 is sente
]
;B[jr]C[Tien [-\]: K2 is the correct answer, and there's not so much after all for white to do
Tien [-\]: Correct black refutation, then
]
;W[jp]C[gogonuts [5d\]: not much here
]
;B[kr]C[gogonuts [5d\]: L2 looks ok
]
;W[ek]C[TurtleDove [4k?\]: oh, no time limit. not so easy to know what the opponent will consider reasonable thinking time
gogonuts [5d\]: 3 days?
TurtleDove [4k?\]: ;)
enufo3 [2k\]: after 6 months the game gets annulled by the server
gogonuts [5d\]: switch to r15 imo
MrZNF [5d\]: r16 better i think
gogonuts [5d\]: if w works on bs center, maybe b will one day get a chance to work on the left
gogonuts [5d\]: you could be right
MrZNF [5d\]: too much aji left at spots like p18, after a move like r13
MrZNF [5d\]: but it depends, possibly after r13, b could defend in a big way
gogonuts [5d\]: but even a pro would have a hard time with definitive judgement, imo
gogonuts [5d\]: r15 or r16 is one of the mysteries of go :-)
gogonuts [5d\]: r16 is the rational kibitz move, r15 the players move :-)
MrZNF [5d\]: I prefer r16 myself usually, especially if I'm ahead
MrZNF [5d\]: r15 feels like an investment
]
;B[el]
;W[fl]C[MrZNF [5d\]: b better have read something
]
;B[fk]C[MrZNF [5d\]: e7 d8 g7 
gogonuts [5d\]: tien giving ootakamoku parallel treatment :_)
gogonuts [5d\]: this doesnt feel well read
MrZNF [5d\]: e7 and e10 feels ill advised
gogonuts [5d\]: it still feels like d11 annoyed b :_)
]
;W[fj]C[kostuek [?\]: lets do some ko
MrZNF [5d\]: g9 e7 d8 g7 e10 
MrZNF [5d\]: I wonder if this is manageable for black
MrZNF [5d\]: after getting g9
MrZNF [5d\]: looks plausible, but very risky
Tien [-\]: I was a bit worried when black was thinking long here :)
Tien [-\]: No way to give the ponnuki no matter what
]
;B[gk]
;W[dl]
;B[em]
;W[fm]C[gogonuts [5d\]: smart w
]
;B[ej]
;W[dk]C[gogonuts [5d\]: g5 is absolute sente
]
;B[dj]
;W[cj]
;B[ei]
;W[eh]
;B[fi]
;W[dm]
;B[ng]C[gogonuts [5d\]: o13 doesnt look promising, but i guess it's a good try now
gogonuts [5d\]: see if w can be made to overplay :-)
LEIBNIZ [2k\]: is O13 better than R15?
Tien [-\]: What's Jeff's score estimation here?
Tien [-\]: I'm pretty sure black is good
Finnish8d [-\]: I have to count
Werfeus [5d\]: i think i was setting up a new pot of coffee at that point..
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: seal corner with r16 instead?
Tien [-\]: Werfe, ok, that's better
Tien [-\]: No, I think o13 is good
Tien [-\]: Ib lack is allowed to play at around g13, too, the centre becomes a really efficient territory
Tien [-\]: *If
]
;W[ni]C[gogonuts [5d\]: better isnt the right word
gogonuts [5d\]: r15 wasnt enough anymore
gogonuts [5d\]: so might as well try O13 :-)
LEIBNIZ [2k\]: hmmm, ok, I will think on that
Tien [-\]: Aloitellaan läpikäyntien kanssa sitten puolen maissa, kello 13 on tiukka aikaraja loppumiselle
]
;B[mi]
;W[ke]C[Werfeus [5d\]: joo
Werfeus [5d\]: peli on varmaan sillon hyväs kuosissa
]
;B[kc]
;W[ie]C[Katsu [6k\]: maybe r13?
]
;B[he]
;W[if]
;B[hf]
;W[jd]C[Finnish8d [-\]: yeah looks positive to b, slightly
]
(;B[hg]C[Finnish8d [-\]: This way is very risky
]
;W[jc]
;B[kb]C[cjr [3d\]: dont understand why black picks this side
herissondu [4d\]: going for the kill
Werfeus [5d\]: u ded?
Tien [-\]: Ihmettelin juuri ääneen että miksi musta heittää pistejohdon pois vastineeksi epävarmasta tappoyrityksestä
]
;W[mh]C[Werfeus [5d\]: siitä voidaankin sitten olla eri mieltä
]
;B[lh]
;W[li]
;B[mj]
;W[mg]
;B[kh]C[Werfeus [5d\]: $$
]
;W[hd]
;B[gd]
;W[hc]
;B[qd]C[Werfeus [5d\]: g15 cut was too efficient. I wanted r16
Finnish8d [-\]: aha ok ^^
Finnish8d [-\]: you could have gotten top side and R16 
Finnish8d [-\]: but now only R16, so now it doesn't look positive anymore
]
;W[jh]
(;B[ji]C[gogonuts [5d\]:       w unshakable
gogonuts [5d\]: just too strong :-)
]
;W[fh]
;B[gi]
;W[ii]C[Werfeus [5d\]: k11 was un-read move
Werfeus [5d\]: and everything to follow
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
Werfeus [5d\]: time was up
Finnish8d [-\]: this is tough
]
;B[jg]
;W[ig]C[herissondu [4d\]: wow
Muttley [2k\]: w is about 10 ahead or so
]
;B[hh]C[Muttley [2k\]: based on correcting SE's errors
]
;W[ih]
;B[ij]
;W[ki]
;B[jj]C[largehc [-\]: Oh hey, muttley, you're back to 2k 
herissondu [4d\]: b's attack totally failed
Muttley [2k\]: yeah, I got a lucky win
largehc [-\]: Hehe 
]
;W[ge]C[Denholtz [1d?\]: W is an insei?
]
;B[fe]C[Muttley [2k\]: (spoiler: they're all lucky :)
largehc [-\]: So modest 
herissondu [4d\]: b should read...
]
;W[gf]
;B[fg]
;W[gc]C[largehc [-\]: Yes 
]
;B[fd]
;W[gh]C[Werfeus [5d\]: tattis
Tien [-\]: Kiitos
Tien [-\]: Olikin aika juuri
largehc [-\]: :) 
Werfeus [5d\]: joo semmonen res-veivi
largehc [-\]: Murskis 
Tien [-\]: Ensin Ergo vs. Jeff, demo auki
])
(;B[ki]C[Finnish8d [-\]: but if b can only answer here, b doesn't have enough for sure
Werfeus [5d\]: this is alright, no need to think about this
Finnish8d [-\]: ok : )
Werfeus [5d\]: to comment about this*
Finnish8d [-\]: Alright then I guess we may finish this game here
Finnish8d [-\]: and turn to Oota's ^^
Werfeus [5d\]: yes, thanks
]))
(;B[jc]TR[ii][ji][ki][li]C[Tien [-\]: For example just like this
Tien [-\]: In the game black walled off the territory here
Finnish8d [-\]: b only needs 20 on the entire top
Tien [-\]: But lost the upper-side territory
Tien [-\]: I think black can keep the upper side and anyway get the territory walled off along the triangles
Tien [-\]: Since white is not yet alive himself
Werfeus [5d\]: alright
Werfeus [5d\]: was e4 correct?
Finnish8d [-\]: that is fine to me
Tien [-\]: I don't think there's much to say about hte opening game, at least
Tien [-\]: The whole moyo structure on the lower side was fine
Tien [-\]: And instead this last upper side maneuvre was critical
Werfeus [5d\]: k5 instead of e4, any sense?
Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah so as my counting, here b should just defend
Finnish8d [-\]: even if w lives it is positive to b
]))
(;B[jo]
(;W[po]C[Tien [-\]: And here?
Finnish8d [-\]: ah nope
Tien [-\]: K5 is trying for centre too early
])
(;W[qo]C[Finnish8d [-\]: cannot do directly without preparation
Tien [-\]: Even with this, white is fine
]
;B[oo]
;W[ql]C[Tien [-\]: That's too narrow now
Tien [-\]: Ah, okay, but I have to switch for NGA lecture
Werfeus [5d\]: you omitted h6, was it special startegy, or would it have been bad?
Tien [-\]: Jeff has control now
Finnish8d [-\]: sure
Werfeus [5d\]: after e4 sequence
Tien [-\]: Jeff, can you save the two files and email me when you're finished?
Tien [-\]: I mean, with the commentaries
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah ok
Tien [-\]: Thanks
Finnish8d [-\]: Will do ^^
])))
(;B[pf]C[White: Antti Törmänen
Black: Henry Hemming]
;W[dp]
;B[np]
;W[dd]
;B[jd]C[Ootakamoku [4d?\]: :)
Finnish8d [-\]: hmm this is so odd
]
;W[gq]
;B[fc]
;W[cf]
;B[qo]
;W[kp]
;B[dg]
;W[df]
;B[fg]
;W[db]
;B[pc]
;W[qh]C[Tien [-\]: Which one? :)
]
(;B[qf]
;W[pk]C[Ootakamoku [4d?\]: I already learned so much from this game, just from l4 and q9 :P
bleen [-\]: b fuseki so strange
Finnish8d [-\]: if it is logical, strange is fine
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: was naively expecting r9
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: and then I couldnt find a proper move
Finnish8d [-\]: the problem is
Finnish8d [-\]: bottom right corner can hardly work with the rest of the board
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: I wanted to separate l4, but was so expensiove to do that, so I didnt dare
Finnish8d [-\]: while b is taking moyo strategy
Finnish8d [-\]: so it is hard to see what b can do next
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: here
Finnish8d [-\]: I mean this moment
Finnish8d [-\]: to me I have no idea what b should do
Finnish8d [-\]: so
Tien [-\]: Ah, ok
]
(;B[iq]
;W[ip]
;B[jp]C[Werfeus [5d\]: yea, if it's way too crude or not.. ^^
]
;W[jo]
;B[jq]
;W[hp]
;B[kq]
;W[qq]C[Ootakamoku [4d?\]: idea behind r7 was, I will get sente, and then attack with p12
Finnish8d [-\]: thinking
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: but somehow w got sente life with r3 :(
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah I know
Werfeus [5d\]: no comments about q12 after q9?
Finnish8d [-\]: the problem is, your sente pays huge
Finnish8d [-\]: q12?
Finnish8d [-\]: you mean to enlarge the top side?
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: q12 instead of j3
Finnish8d [-\]: this is hard, I don't have a good move for b
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: r7 and just more forcefull about getting sente?
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: so I get p12 too
Finnish8d [-\]: alright let's see your plan
]
;B[qm]C[Werfeus [5d\]: how's q12 after q9
Finnish8d [-\]: if I may understand the rest
Werfeus [5d\]: is it too crude :D
Finnish8d [-\]: R7 is a huge investment
Finnish8d [-\]: cos b could have attacked w corner and make it suffer
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: hmm, right, so q4 instead of r7?
]
;W[oq]
;B[nq]
;W[op]
;B[oo]
;W[nr]
;B[mr]
;W[or]C[Ootakamoku [4d?\]: here p12
Finnish8d [-\]: the pay is way too big
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah you can
Finnish8d [-\]: but you leave a shape full of cutting points
Finnish8d [-\]: that is the pay
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: sure, but just p12 exchange in itself will be good?
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: or will w ignore it_
Finnish8d [-\]: w will not, of course
Finnish8d [-\]: I am just saying, the payment for sente is big
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: so should I play p12 atleast before fixing cuts?
Finnish8d [-\]: and so I doubt if it is worth it
Finnish8d [-\]: cos you can get P12 anyway
Finnish8d [-\]: just R7 increases some pressure
Finnish8d [-\]: I don't like it at least
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: hmm, ok
Finnish8d [-\]: cos R7 itself values very limited
Finnish8d [-\]: and even if with R12
Finnish8d [-\]: w can easily handle the right side
]
(;B[lp]
;W[oh]C[Finnish8d [-\]: So you are saying this is worse
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: ya
Finnish8d [-\]: which I agree : )
]
;B[pi]
;W[ph]
;B[ng]
;W[mi]
;B[lh]
;W[pb]
;B[ob]
;W[oc]
(;B[qb]
;W[pd]
;B[qc]
;W[nb]
;B[pa]
(;W[kc]C[Ootakamoku [4d?\]: can I justify the o13 etc with the attack I get?
Finnish8d [-\]: if there will be one
]
;B[jc]
;W[kd]
;B[je]
;W[nd]
;B[oe]
;W[lf]
;B[li]
;W[mj]
;B[nh]
;W[oi]
;B[me]C[gogonuts [5d\]: oota not used to such sabaki steals from the bots
pipong [2d\]: wasn't n17 better ?
]
;W[mh]C[gogonuts [5d\]: problem with n17 would have been that you always help w connect one of the peeps by realizing the other cut
]
;B[md]
(;W[mg]
;B[mf]C[Finnish8d [-\]: hehe ok, so Antti takes it easy here
]
;W[lg]
;B[ke]C[Ootakamoku [4d?\]: ya, shift moyo to j12 area, fix weakness in sente?
]
;W[cn]C[pipong [2d\]: seemed like it was making an eyeless w group running
pipong [2d\]: but surely better to get this corner
Finnish8d [-\]: Like this at least b got something
Finnish8d [-\]: especially top side those exchanges b gained
Finnish8d [-\]: L17-K17, those
Tien [-\]: White has h17 left
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah I know
Finnish8d [-\]: still
]
;B[dq]C[Tien [-\]: Aloitellaan läpikäyntien kanssa sitten puolen maissa
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: ok
]
;W[cq]
;B[eq]
;W[cp]
;B[fp]
;W[fn]
;B[go]
;W[hm]C[yuzo [4k\]: b looks dead here
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: eh..
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: how did I not see that
pipong [2d\]: h5
pipong [2d\]: should be fine like this
pipong [2d\]: h5,j5,g7
yuzo [4k\]: but h5 j5 and b is still trapped, no?
]
;B[gr]
;W[di]C[pipong [2d\]: yes , but then start a fight or get out with g7 , not sure it was working thougt
pipong [2d\]: better to just compromiseand live like this
yuzo [4k\]: ah, I see-- interesting
Finnish8d [-\]: F11 is reasonable
Finnish8d [-\]: the thing is about if b has enough
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: Im losing slightly if w gets left side and I make dame in center?
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: I thouth earlier that I could use f8 shape point, didnt realize even if e3 lives that g5 does now
Finnish8d [-\]: if so that will be a close game
Finnish8d [-\]: but to make centre dame is not easy
Finnish8d [-\]: also actually you owe w something at bottom still
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: e3 lives, g5 dies*
Finnish8d [-\]: G5 is actually in w mouth
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
Finnish8d [-\]: So it is hard to b
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: ya, didnt see that part until later
Finnish8d [-\]: still, i cannot see better move than F11
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: ok
]
;B[cg]C[Ootakamoku [4d?\]: just f11 here?
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: instead of c13
Finnish8d [-\]: definitely not C13
Finnish8d [-\]: wrong shape :P
]
;W[eg]
;B[eh]
;W[ef]
;B[dh]
;W[ci]
;B[ei]
;W[dk]C[Naphthalin [11k?\]: i just checked out oota
Naphthalin [11k?\]: 's website
Naphthalin [11k?\]: really nice
]
;B[ek]
;W[dl]
;B[gn]
;W[gm]
;B[fq]
;W[fh]C[Finnish8d [-\]: So the cut finished the game?
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: no, ran out of time
Finnish8d [-\]: b really doesn't have time to do F3 to me
]
;B[gi]
;W[gg]
;B[fl]
;W[fm]
;B[ii]
;W[ig]
;B[hk]
;W[jm]C[Tien [-\]: Ok, voitaisiin katsoa pelejä
Tien [-\]: Ensin Ergo-Jeff Saunassa
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: ok
gogonuts [5d\]: you played well, oota
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: thx
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: I stopped playing against bots some time ago, results improved after that :P
Finnish8d [-\]: well same thing
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: so is b losing by much here?
Finnish8d [-\]: b has to play on the top side now
Finnish8d [-\]: no not by much
Finnish8d [-\]: but it is a w win in pocket
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: hmm
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: ok
Finnish8d [-\]: cos you have to fight for the top side move
Finnish8d [-\]: w will get a bit from centre, then turn right side for yose first
Finnish8d [-\]: mainly, w has nothing weak
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: right
Finnish8d [-\]: Alright
Finnish8d [-\]: so the odd fuseki is not so successful :P
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: Ill keep at it until its succesfull
Finnish8d [-\]: R14 is the first one that lost the whole board control
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: ya
Finnish8d [-\]: must pincer
Finnish8d [-\]: and R7 made is just even harder
Finnish8d [-\]: it*
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: did I have an alternative to j3?
])
(;W[ke]C[Finnish8d [-\]: To me w should have done it harder
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: ya, I kept reading this
Finnish8d [-\]: b cannot do much in this way as my reading
Finnish8d [-\]: this can finish the game already : )
Tien [-\]: Hmm yeah, possible
Tien [-\]: Unless black l14 works
]
;B[kf]
;W[le]
;B[lg]
;W[mf]
;B[mg]
;W[ne]C[Finnish8d [-\]: unless b can kill like this
]
;B[mc]
;W[mb]
;B[nf]
;W[nc]
;B[kb]
;W[lb]
;B[jb]C[Tien [-\]: I didn't bother to take the time to read, I just saw that taking the centre stones is enough
Finnish8d [-\]: ok : )
Finnish8d [-\]: and yeah there is a danger
]))
(;W[ld]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I don't think there will be one if w just simply does this
]))
(;B[nb]C[Finnish8d [-\]: can b compromise?
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: dno, w still has h17
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: so if I now give corner away, and later w takes h17 too..
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah w can do so all the time
Finnish8d [-\]: the thing is
Finnish8d [-\]: in the way you did in the game
Finnish8d [-\]: you can hardly do much on w top side
Finnish8d [-\]: then all those earlier O13, M12 are wasted
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: right
Finnish8d [-\]: so I am considering compromise
]))
(;B[oh]
;W[ql]
;B[pm]
;W[nk]C[Ootakamoku [4d?\]: and now fix
]
(;B[lp])
(;B[mo]C[Ootakamoku [4d?\]: now w overs half a move for q9 still?
Finnish8d [-\]: then obviously b lost something, right?
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: and b moyo potential on topside better?
Finnish8d [-\]: I cannot see why you lost so much at bottom right and so happy for the situation
Finnish8d [-\]: just because of getting P12?
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: I agree r7 was bad, just sayint after it was played, I should play this way?
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: instead of gameline
Finnish8d [-\]: ah
Finnish8d [-\]: maybe, but it is not good still
Finnish8d [-\]: if you have to add a move back here
Finnish8d [-\]: which is the case after your tenuki from bottom right
])))
(;B[ph]
;W[pi]
;B[oi]
;W[oh]
(;B[pg]
;W[pj]
;B[nh]C[Werfeus [5d\]: noooo no connecting
Finnish8d [-\]: The problem is, top side is not so big
])
(;B[nh]
;W[pg]
;B[og]C[Werfeus [5d\]: yes
]
;W[ph]
;B[ng]C[Finnish8d [-\]: If like this, w right side is safe already
]
;W[hc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: To me b top side is not big enough
Werfeus [5d\]: too crude it is, then
Finnish8d [-\]: hehe ok, guess so then : )
]))
(;B[oh]C[Finnish8d [-\]: cap right away?
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: I did think of this, just thought its too early
Finnish8d [-\]: well
Finnish8d [-\]: you only have top side left
Finnish8d [-\]: so this definitely is not early
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: ko
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: ok*
Finnish8d [-\]: ^^
Finnish8d [-\]: But alright, guess that is pretty much everything here then
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: ya
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: thanks for the review.
Finnish8d [-\]: ^^  thanks
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: o/
]))
(;B[qk]C[Finnish8d [-\]: probably b has to pincer
Tien [-\]: Has to be pincer, yes
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: ok
Finnish8d [-\]: in this kind of moyo fuseki
Finnish8d [-\]: corner is not your main concern
Ootakamoku [4d?\]: I Thought naively, you would make 3rd line base, and I could flatten it, to make f13 look prettier
Finnish8d [-\]: ok : )
])))
