(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.50]
PW[Ten]PB[Veivi]DT[2015-05-17]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Veivi [-\]: have a nice game
Ten [?\]: Hyvää peliä
]RE[W+Resign]
;B[pd]C[Ten [?\]: I'll be biased if I start reviewing :)
]
;W[dp]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Ok ^^
]
;B[oq]
;W[dd]
;B[cn]
;W[cl]
;B[fq]
;W[dn]
;B[cq]
;W[cp]
;B[dq]
;W[ep]
;B[eq]
;W[po]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Get it ^^
Finnish8d [-\]: I just don't like the result in the game, which b got seperated
Ten [?\]: But yes, I think taking corner is best
]
(;B[qm]
;W[np]C[Ten [?\]: My two points would be 1) the part where black got weak in the centre, and 2) the part where black just gave the fight away in the top left
Veivi [-\]: yeah, top left was kind of sad from me
Seagal [1d\]: :(
Ten [?\]: So I think that doesn't count :)
]
(;B[op]
;W[oo]
;B[no]
;W[lp]
;B[nn]
;W[nq]
;B[qp]
;W[pm]
;B[qo]C[Ten [?\]: This black did get cut off quite neatly
Ten [?\]: And p2 will always be white's sente, kind of
Seagal [1d\]: why w no r5?
Ten [?\]: I wasn't sure if it's a good exchange or not
Seagal [1d\]: ok
]
;W[ql]
;B[qn]
;W[om]C[Ten [?\]: Anyway the result doesn't really change here
Seagal [1d\]: I would insta play it :)
Ten [?\]: This seemed easy to understand
]
;B[ln]
;W[pk]
(;B[ml]
;W[qh]C[Ten [?\]: Definitely not r14
Finnish8d [-\]: So still the bottom
Ten [?\]: That's almost like conceding defeat
Finnish8d [-\]: R14 is too small
]
(;B[qf]
;W[jp]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Now too comfortable to w
]
;B[qj]
;W[rk]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Problem is this R10 is not serious enough
]
(;B[cj]C[Ten [?\]: K4 ensured no problem on the lower side, too
Ten [?\]: And still the centre group is floating there
Veivi [-\]: yeah, i hugely overvalued R10 when playing R14
Finnish8d [-\]: Guessed so ^^
Veivi [-\]: i thought i'll have some actual plays after
Ten [?\]: Usually you'd not try to attack the opponent's thickness if you get behind in the opening :)
Finnish8d [-\]: Here actually we have 2 plans, but both are about b centre group
Veivi [-\]: :P
Finnish8d [-\]: so either enhance the group right away
Finnish8d [-\]: or at least not hurt it
Ten [?\]: I'm kind of liking something like k9 for black
Finnish8d [-\]: I know ^^
Finnish8d [-\]: And I am the other way :P
Ten [?\]: "Dancing" move, eh
]
;W[bq]
;B[br]
;W[ch]
;B[cm]
;W[dl]
;B[dm]
;W[em]
;B[en]C[Ten [?\]: Playing near the strong white group to the left should not be big
]
(;W[fn]C[Ten [?\]: Pretty sure black had e8 here
Ten [?\]: Oh, no he doesn't
Ten [?\]: Silly me
]
;B[bl]C[Ten [?\]: Hmm, then this is out too
]
;W[el]
;B[bk]
;W[di]C[Ten [?\]: Ah, Jeff will go for kill? :)
Finnish8d [-\]: Hehe probably I am too greedy
Finnish8d [-\]: looks risky that way
Ten [?\]: With the centre this way, there's no way white is taking a loss
Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah this is good anyway
Ten [?\]: I feel like c10 has to add a stone in the centre
Finnish8d [-\]: I doubt about b C10 as a start
Ten [?\]: Not sure if n10 or k9
Finnish8d [-\]: Aha ok
Ten [?\]: If not in the centre, maybe k16?
Finnish8d [-\]: Tenuki is not completely impossible, but not hurting the centre further
Ten [?\]: can you put the game to that point?
Ten [?\]: Yeah
]
;B[do]
;W[fo]
;B[bh]
;W[bg]
;B[bi]
;W[mj]C[Finnish8d [-\]: This is too difficult
]
(;B[jn]
;W[kj]
;B[ip]C[Ten [?\]: Guess it could be different if the upper side was already played out
]
;W[iq]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Sure, so to deduce the value of w centre stones
Ten [?\]: Yeah
]
;B[io]
;W[or]C[Ten [?\]: Total misjudgment for me here, h3 was a free move :)
]
;B[pr]C[Ten [?\]: Not like p2 is small, but anyway
Ten [?\]: Black h3 feels good
Finnish8d [-\]: Hehe ok now I understand
Finnish8d [-\]: right
]
;W[nr]
;B[hq]
;W[qr]
;B[rr]
(;W[pq]C[Ten [?\]: Part of the problem
]
;B[pp]
;W[ps]C[Ten [?\]: Black f7 could be really severe
Ten [?\]: So had to get back to fix it
Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah that I know
Finnish8d [-\]: I missed the gote part :P
Ten [?\]: Ok :)
]
;B[rs]
;W[dj]
(;B[fc]C[Ten [?\]: In my mind, black is supposed to keep away from l10
Finnish8d [-\]: definitely not to approach though
Ten [?\]: Anyway, should be the k line
Finnish8d [-\]: cos corner is not big with that cutting point
Ten [?\]: Black wants to keep an option to play something like c17 or d17
Ten [?\]: Exactly, that too
]
;W[hc]
(;B[jc]C[Ten [?\]: Also, the white centre influence makes a pincer real valuable
Veivi [-\]: i kinda realized the approach sucked, but too late
Finnish8d [-\]: too late, yes
]
;W[ec]
;B[fd]
;W[hd]
;B[je]
;W[hf]C[Finnish8d [-\]: then b cannot win
Veivi [-\]: yea
Ten [?\]: To h17, try attach in corner?
]
;B[oc]
;W[cf]
;B[ib]
;W[hb]
;B[jg]
;W[ih]
;B[rh]C[Seagal [1d\]: f17 stones sad :(
]
;W[rg]
;B[qg]
;W[ri]
;B[ph]
;W[qi]
;B[pi]
;W[pj]
;B[rf]
;W[rm]
;B[rn]
;W[ir]
;B[jk]
;W[bo]
;B[bn]
;W[ar]
;B[gp]
;W[sn]
;B[so]
;W[sm]
;B[rp]
;W[sh]
;B[mh]
;W[nh]
;B[ng]
;W[ni]
;B[hj]
;W[og]
;B[nf]
;W[gi]
;B[pg]
;W[gj]
;B[hr]
;W[sf]
;B[se]
;W[sg]
;B[re]
;W[ko]
;B[ha]
;W[ga]
;B[ia]
;W[fb]
;B[kk]
;W[kh]
;B[kg]
;W[jd]
;B[kd]
;W[id]
;B[kb]
;W[hs]
;B[gs]
;W[is]
;B[cr]
;W[gl]
;B[hk]
;W[kn]
;B[km]
;W[hn]
;B[lo]
;W[kp]
;B[jh]
;W[ii]
;B[ji]
;W[nk]C[Veivi [-\]: kiitos
Ten [?\]: Kiitos
Ten [?\]: Jeff want to review?
Finnish8d [-\]: I am here 
Finnish8d [-\]: Alright, I thought I might just assist :P
Ten [?\]: Jeff has control
])
(;B[dc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: So looks like bottom right was not decisive
Finnish8d [-\]: left side was
Ten [?\]: Yeah, giving white that wall made things hard
Finnish8d [-\]: after that it is just hard
Ten [?\]: After that it's a question of how black will balance with the white thickness all around
]
;W[cc]
(;B[ed]C[Ten [?\]: Uh, and cut, I guess
]
;W[db])
(;B[cd]C[Ten [?\]: That makes the upper side all white territory
Ten [?\]: But maybe white d15 in the first place is good
Ten [?\]: Here
]
(;W[ec]
(;B[ed]
;W[db]
;B[de]C[Ten [?\]: Ah, no, go out?
]
;W[dc]C[Ten [?\]: I don't want to go to the centre
])
(;B[db]
;W[ed]C[Ten [?\]: e18
Finnish8d [-\]: but this is not good right?
]
;B[eb]C[Ten [?\]: Still judging
]
;W[ce]C[Ten [?\]: Out
]
;B[bd]C[Ten [?\]: Isn't this good for black, actually?
]
;W[bc]C[Ten [?\]: Turn
]
;B[be]
;W[bf]C[Ten [?\]: Push out
]
;B[fd]
;W[de]
(;B[gb]C[Ten [?\]: I was thinking attachment
Ten [?\]: With p18, the corner lives already
Ten [?\]: Uh, b18
Ten [?\]: So for now, h16
]
;W[he])
(;B[hd]
;W[id]
;B[he]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Aha ok
Ten [?\]: Seems like total rip-off to me
]
;W[gb]
;B[fb]
;W[jc]
;B[bb]
;W[ae]
;B[cb]
;W[ad]
(;B[fe]C[Ten [?\]: Hmm
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah ok looks good now
])
(;B[oc]C[Ten [?\]: Can play tenuki
]))))
(;W[cb]C[Ten [?\]: That could be a mess, yeah
]
;B[hd]C[Ten [?\]: Looks like something with h16, right
Finnish8d [-\]: something like this
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah that will be a mess
Ten [?\]: Not too simple for white, so black could try to fight this way
Finnish8d [-\]: Ok right
])
(;W[de]C[Ten [?\]: Since the corner wasn't supposed to be valuable
]
;B[cb]
(;W[bc]
;B[eb]C[Ten [?\]: So give up ponnuki in corner
]
;W[bb]
;B[ba]
;W[ce]
;B[ed]C[Ten [?\]: Yeah, then has to be that I guess
Ten [?\]: Hmm, looks too nice for black
Ten [?\]: I think I'll cut as white instead
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
])
(;W[ec]
;B[bc]
(;W[db])
(;W[eb]C[Ten [?\]: I was thinking just descent :)
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah once again risky
Ten [?\]: F7 could be a lot of threats
]
;B[ce]C[Ten [?\]: So extend
]
;W[df]
;B[id]C[Ten [?\]: Push third line twice
]
;W[ic]
(;B[jd]
;W[jc]
;B[kd]C[Ten [?\]: Ah, you'll extend?
Ten [?\]: I thought jump
])
(;B[kd]C[Ten [?\]: So then k17 and next o17
Finnish8d [-\]: hehe you said twice :P  was following your way :P
Ten [?\]: Well, same thing anyway :)
Ten [?\]: k17 k16 o17 
]
;W[jc]
;B[jd]
;W[nc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: This might be a way to b 
Finnish8d [-\]: I mean a way to play
Ten [?\]: Yeah
]
;B[pc]C[Ten [?\]: Challenge that way, I see
Finnish8d [-\]: Well with this board :P
Ten [?\]: Hehe
Ten [?\]: Ok, so d17 could work
Finnish8d [-\]: yes
])))))))
(;B[jd]C[Ten [?\]: Ah, huh
Ten [?\]: This time I'd take third line
])
(;B[jc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: hesitating
]))
(;W[qq]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I thought w would do this
]
;B[rq]C[Ten [?\]: Thought about it, but looked gote
]
;W[pp]
(;B[rm])
(;B[qs]
;W[pq]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Ah I see
])))
(;B[kk]
;W[kj]C[Ten [?\]: As far from the strong white wall as possible
Finnish8d [-\]: still difficult though :P
Ten [?\]: L9 is more like the direction anyway
Finnish8d [-\]: sure
Finnish8d [-\]: that is to expand space for b group itself
Ten [?\]: But really, it's looking like black's invasion only lost black some more
Finnish8d [-\]: K6 is too narrow
Finnish8d [-\]: yes
Finnish8d [-\]: it is locally a trade, with b taking points and w influence
Finnish8d [-\]: but here w influence values too much
]))
(;W[fm]))
(;B[jc]C[Ten [?\]: I'll take high anytime
Finnish8d [-\]: Ah 16 :P
])
(;B[jd]C[Ten [?\]: This seems kind of possible too
Ten [?\]: Still, white n10 seems like a good point
]
;W[mj]
;B[fc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Hehe I like it :P
Ten [?\]: Ok, I'll bite, I'll take l10 too
]
;W[kj]
;B[im]C[Ten [?\]: Ok, back to left
Ten [?\]: D14 or whatever
]
;W[df]C[Ten [?\]: Saying that left side is white points as long as the centre looks like that
Ten [?\]: Well, but could be that black could fight like this
Finnish8d [-\]: Hehe I will still invade the left :P
Finnish8d [-\]: but ok
Ten [?\]: Sure, that's the "fight" part :)
Finnish8d [-\]: at least b tenuki shouldn't hurt the centre
Ten [?\]: And you know I invade the upper side
Finnish8d [-\]: in the game it did, enormously
Ten [?\]: Later on
Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah sure
Veivi [-\]: yeah
Ten [?\]: Where by "invade" I mean "attack the black groups there"
Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah, that is the value of w centre 2
Finnish8d [-\]: for left and top
Finnish8d [-\]: I understand those
Finnish8d [-\]: :D
Ten [?\]: Hehe
])
(;B[jk]C[Finnish8d [-\]: ^^
Ten [?\]: This way I can aim either for the upper side or the left side next
Ten [?\]: White can't have both
Ten [?\]: And the pressing concern, the weak black group in the centre, is kind of fixed
Veivi [-\]: right
Finnish8d [-\]: Ok that helps for me to understand ^^
Finnish8d [-\]: I always suggest to tenuki when there is a weak group :P
Ten [?\]: It can work too :)
Ten [?\]: Somehow I've tried to develop a skill for efficient defending lately in insei games
Ten [?\]: It's not that I'll lose by dying if I don't defend
Ten [?\]: But usually it becomes a situation where the opponent can just push the weak group until he gets a definite lead
Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah
Ten [?\]: So keeping a situation where you're attacking and not being attacked is really vital
Finnish8d [-\]: the value of a tenuki and potential loss of the weak group
Ten [?\]: Right
Ten [?\]: So that's actually the second part of my idea with k9 :)
Ten [?\]: Trying to keep the value of tenuki low with keeping two possible areas to play next
Ten [?\]: K17 or c14
Ten [?\]: So white doesn't have a single obviously good move next
Ten [?\]: Just many promising-looking moves
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah I see what you mean already : )
Finnish8d [-\]: so to add a move or not
Finnish8d [-\]: the point is the value of the next move
Ten [?\]: If there's a single obviously good move, then the player who gets it gets an altogether profit
Ten [?\]: But if it's hard to pick the move, then you're not really profiting by playing it
Ten [?\]: The total score more or less stays the same
Finnish8d [-\]: Ok ^^
Ten [?\]: Like in endgame, you can have 6pts, 5.5pts, 4pts, 3pts and so on
Ten [?\]: Similar values, hard to figure out which is biggest
Ten [?\]: And even if you don't get it right, you lose little
Ten [?\]: And then there could be 12pts, 7pts, 4pts
Ten [?\]: That way you'll lose a lot if you make a mistake, but usually you can tell by a glance what the right move is
Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah I see : )
Ten [?\]: Well, the rule of thumb is easy, just make the opponent's next move hard :)
Finnish8d [-\]: I need to explain this to my students :P
Ten [?\]: Hehe
Finnish8d [-\]: But ok
Ten [?\]: Guess we'd finish here, a bit early?
Finnish8d [-\]: guess for this game, we may conclude here?
Ten [?\]: Right
Veivi [-\]: yeah
Veivi [-\]: thanks for the game & stuff
]))
(;B[ip]C[Ten [?\]: Kinda hard to find the spot on the bottom still, but around j4 I guess
Ten [?\]: Now white would live with k3, probably
]
;W[jq]
(;B[iq]
;W[jp])
(;B[jp]C[Ten [?\]: Yeah, that one is better
Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah ok
])))
(;B[ip]C[Ten [?\]: Yeah, that's more interesting maybe
]
(;W[ko]
;B[in]
;W[kn]
;B[ll]C[Veivi [-\]: definitely more interesting
Veivi [-\]: riding the wagon
Finnish8d [-\]: To me this way it is more natural
Veivi [-\]: yee-haw
Ten [?\]: Does white shoulder hit exist?
Veivi [-\]: yeah, i like the flow
Ten [?\]: I'd take that instead of l5 if possible
])
(;W[jo]
;B[kp]C[Veivi [-\]: cut works for b no?
Ten [?\]: Timing is a bit difficult to work
Ten [?\]: Would need p2+n2 before this, so no
Ten [?\]: Yeah, kosumi then
Finnish8d [-\]: Ok
]
;W[nr]
;B[or]C[Finnish8d [-\]: hmm ok
])))
(;B[nq]
;W[mp]
;B[mq]
;W[lp]
;B[qp]
;W[qo]
;B[rp]C[Ten [?\]: Jeff, I guess, "why play like this as black if black didn't choose r4 in the first place"
Finnish8d [-\]: Guess this will be my way
Ten [?\]: You'd take the corner immediately, too
Finnish8d [-\]: Ah
]))
(;B[qp]C[Veivi [-\]: i thought about getting the corner, but felt it was submissive
]
;W[qo]
(;B[rp]C[Ten [?\]: I feel like playing around the star point now
Seagal [1d\]: you mean b stones are so low all over?
Finnish8d [-\]: you just picked a way to earn your life, that has nothing to do with submissive ^^
])
(;B[pp]
;W[oo]
(;B[np])
(;B[pj]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Guess this is what you meant?
Ten [?\]: I'll take black o4
Ten [?\]: Ah, no, meant for white in the last
Ten [?\]: For black it was fine
Finnish8d [-\]: Ok
Ten [?\]: If black q4, then black o4 for me too
Ten [?\]: Starting to feel really good about the future turn at f4
]))))
