(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2] RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.50] PW[Ten]PB[Veivi]DT[2015-05-17]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Veivi [-\]: have a nice game Ten [?\]: Hyvää peliä ]RE[W+Resign] ;B[pd]C[Ten [?\]: I'll be biased if I start reviewing :) ] ;W[dp]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Ok ^^ ] ;B[oq] ;W[dd] ;B[cn] ;W[cl] ;B[fq] ;W[dn] ;B[cq] ;W[cp] ;B[dq] ;W[ep] ;B[eq] ;W[po]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Get it ^^ Finnish8d [-\]: I just don't like the result in the game, which b got seperated Ten [?\]: But yes, I think taking corner is best ] (;B[qm] ;W[np]C[Ten [?\]: My two points would be 1) the part where black got weak in the centre, and 2) the part where black just gave the fight away in the top left Veivi [-\]: yeah, top left was kind of sad from me Seagal [1d\]: :( Ten [?\]: So I think that doesn't count :) ] (;B[op] ;W[oo] ;B[no] ;W[lp] ;B[nn] ;W[nq] ;B[qp] ;W[pm] ;B[qo]C[Ten [?\]: This black did get cut off quite neatly Ten [?\]: And p2 will always be white's sente, kind of Seagal [1d\]: why w no r5? Ten [?\]: I wasn't sure if it's a good exchange or not Seagal [1d\]: ok ] ;W[ql] ;B[qn] ;W[om]C[Ten [?\]: Anyway the result doesn't really change here Seagal [1d\]: I would insta play it :) Ten [?\]: This seemed easy to understand ] ;B[ln] ;W[pk] (;B[ml] ;W[qh]C[Ten [?\]: Definitely not r14 Finnish8d [-\]: So still the bottom Ten [?\]: That's almost like conceding defeat Finnish8d [-\]: R14 is too small ] (;B[qf] ;W[jp]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Now too comfortable to w ] ;B[qj] ;W[rk]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Problem is this R10 is not serious enough ] (;B[cj]C[Ten [?\]: K4 ensured no problem on the lower side, too Ten [?\]: And still the centre group is floating there Veivi [-\]: yeah, i hugely overvalued R10 when playing R14 Finnish8d [-\]: Guessed so ^^ Veivi [-\]: i thought i'll have some actual plays after Ten [?\]: Usually you'd not try to attack the opponent's thickness if you get behind in the opening :) Finnish8d [-\]: Here actually we have 2 plans, but both are about b centre group Veivi [-\]: :P Finnish8d [-\]: so either enhance the group right away Finnish8d [-\]: or at least not hurt it Ten [?\]: I'm kind of liking something like k9 for black Finnish8d [-\]: I know ^^ Finnish8d [-\]: And I am the other way :P Ten [?\]: "Dancing" move, eh ] ;W[bq] ;B[br] ;W[ch] ;B[cm] ;W[dl] ;B[dm] ;W[em] ;B[en]C[Ten [?\]: Playing near the strong white group to the left should not be big ] (;W[fn]C[Ten [?\]: Pretty sure black had e8 here Ten [?\]: Oh, no he doesn't Ten [?\]: Silly me ] ;B[bl]C[Ten [?\]: Hmm, then this is out too ] ;W[el] ;B[bk] ;W[di]C[Ten [?\]: Ah, Jeff will go for kill? :) Finnish8d [-\]: Hehe probably I am too greedy Finnish8d [-\]: looks risky that way Ten [?\]: With the centre this way, there's no way white is taking a loss Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah this is good anyway Ten [?\]: I feel like c10 has to add a stone in the centre Finnish8d [-\]: I doubt about b C10 as a start Ten [?\]: Not sure if n10 or k9 Finnish8d [-\]: Aha ok Ten [?\]: If not in the centre, maybe k16? Finnish8d [-\]: Tenuki is not completely impossible, but not hurting the centre further Ten [?\]: can you put the game to that point? Ten [?\]: Yeah ] ;B[do] ;W[fo] ;B[bh] ;W[bg] ;B[bi] ;W[mj]C[Finnish8d [-\]: This is too difficult ] (;B[jn] ;W[kj] ;B[ip]C[Ten [?\]: Guess it could be different if the upper side was already played out ] ;W[iq]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Sure, so to deduce the value of w centre stones Ten [?\]: Yeah ] ;B[io] ;W[or]C[Ten [?\]: Total misjudgment for me here, h3 was a free move :) ] ;B[pr]C[Ten [?\]: Not like p2 is small, but anyway Ten [?\]: Black h3 feels good Finnish8d [-\]: Hehe ok now I understand Finnish8d [-\]: right ] ;W[nr] ;B[hq] ;W[qr] ;B[rr] (;W[pq]C[Ten [?\]: Part of the problem ] ;B[pp] ;W[ps]C[Ten [?\]: Black f7 could be really severe Ten [?\]: So had to get back to fix it Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah that I know Finnish8d [-\]: I missed the gote part :P Ten [?\]: Ok :) ] ;B[rs] ;W[dj] (;B[fc]C[Ten [?\]: In my mind, black is supposed to keep away from l10 Finnish8d [-\]: definitely not to approach though Ten [?\]: Anyway, should be the k line Finnish8d [-\]: cos corner is not big with that cutting point Ten [?\]: Black wants to keep an option to play something like c17 or d17 Ten [?\]: Exactly, that too ] ;W[hc] (;B[jc]C[Ten [?\]: Also, the white centre influence makes a pincer real valuable Veivi [-\]: i kinda realized the approach sucked, but too late Finnish8d [-\]: too late, yes ] ;W[ec] ;B[fd] ;W[hd] ;B[je] ;W[hf]C[Finnish8d [-\]: then b cannot win Veivi [-\]: yea Ten [?\]: To h17, try attach in corner? ] ;B[oc] ;W[cf] ;B[ib] ;W[hb] ;B[jg] ;W[ih] ;B[rh]C[Seagal [1d\]: f17 stones sad :( ] ;W[rg] ;B[qg] ;W[ri] ;B[ph] ;W[qi] ;B[pi] ;W[pj] ;B[rf] ;W[rm] ;B[rn] ;W[ir] ;B[jk] ;W[bo] ;B[bn] ;W[ar] ;B[gp] ;W[sn] ;B[so] ;W[sm] ;B[rp] ;W[sh] ;B[mh] ;W[nh] ;B[ng] ;W[ni] ;B[hj] ;W[og] ;B[nf] ;W[gi] ;B[pg] ;W[gj] ;B[hr] ;W[sf] ;B[se] ;W[sg] ;B[re] ;W[ko] ;B[ha] ;W[ga] ;B[ia] ;W[fb] ;B[kk] ;W[kh] ;B[kg] ;W[jd] ;B[kd] ;W[id] ;B[kb] ;W[hs] ;B[gs] ;W[is] ;B[cr] ;W[gl] ;B[hk] ;W[kn] ;B[km] ;W[hn] ;B[lo] ;W[kp] ;B[jh] ;W[ii] ;B[ji] ;W[nk]C[Veivi [-\]: kiitos Ten [?\]: Kiitos Ten [?\]: Jeff want to review? Finnish8d [-\]: I am here Finnish8d [-\]: Alright, I thought I might just assist :P Ten [?\]: Jeff has control ]) (;B[dc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: So looks like bottom right was not decisive Finnish8d [-\]: left side was Ten [?\]: Yeah, giving white that wall made things hard Finnish8d [-\]: after that it is just hard Ten [?\]: After that it's a question of how black will balance with the white thickness all around ] ;W[cc] (;B[ed]C[Ten [?\]: Uh, and cut, I guess ] ;W[db]) (;B[cd]C[Ten [?\]: That makes the upper side all white territory Ten [?\]: But maybe white d15 in the first place is good Ten [?\]: Here ] (;W[ec] (;B[ed] ;W[db] ;B[de]C[Ten [?\]: Ah, no, go out? ] ;W[dc]C[Ten [?\]: I don't want to go to the centre ]) (;B[db] ;W[ed]C[Ten [?\]: e18 Finnish8d [-\]: but this is not good right? ] ;B[eb]C[Ten [?\]: Still judging ] ;W[ce]C[Ten [?\]: Out ] ;B[bd]C[Ten [?\]: Isn't this good for black, actually? ] ;W[bc]C[Ten [?\]: Turn ] ;B[be] ;W[bf]C[Ten [?\]: Push out ] ;B[fd] ;W[de] (;B[gb]C[Ten [?\]: I was thinking attachment Ten [?\]: With p18, the corner lives already Ten [?\]: Uh, b18 Ten [?\]: So for now, h16 ] ;W[he]) (;B[hd] ;W[id] ;B[he]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Aha ok Ten [?\]: Seems like total rip-off to me ] ;W[gb] ;B[fb] ;W[jc] ;B[bb] ;W[ae] ;B[cb] ;W[ad] (;B[fe]C[Ten [?\]: Hmm Finnish8d [-\]: yeah ok looks good now ]) (;B[oc]C[Ten [?\]: Can play tenuki ])))) (;W[cb]C[Ten [?\]: That could be a mess, yeah ] ;B[hd]C[Ten [?\]: Looks like something with h16, right Finnish8d [-\]: something like this Finnish8d [-\]: yeah that will be a mess Ten [?\]: Not too simple for white, so black could try to fight this way Finnish8d [-\]: Ok right ]) (;W[de]C[Ten [?\]: Since the corner wasn't supposed to be valuable ] ;B[cb] (;W[bc] ;B[eb]C[Ten [?\]: So give up ponnuki in corner ] ;W[bb] ;B[ba] ;W[ce] ;B[ed]C[Ten [?\]: Yeah, then has to be that I guess Ten [?\]: Hmm, looks too nice for black Ten [?\]: I think I'll cut as white instead Finnish8d [-\]: yeah ]) (;W[ec] ;B[bc] (;W[db]) (;W[eb]C[Ten [?\]: I was thinking just descent :) Finnish8d [-\]: yeah once again risky Ten [?\]: F7 could be a lot of threats ] ;B[ce]C[Ten [?\]: So extend ] ;W[df] ;B[id]C[Ten [?\]: Push third line twice ] ;W[ic] (;B[jd] ;W[jc] ;B[kd]C[Ten [?\]: Ah, you'll extend? Ten [?\]: I thought jump ]) (;B[kd]C[Ten [?\]: So then k17 and next o17 Finnish8d [-\]: hehe you said twice :P was following your way :P Ten [?\]: Well, same thing anyway :) Ten [?\]: k17 k16 o17 ] ;W[jc] ;B[jd] ;W[nc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: This might be a way to b Finnish8d [-\]: I mean a way to play Ten [?\]: Yeah ] ;B[pc]C[Ten [?\]: Challenge that way, I see Finnish8d [-\]: Well with this board :P Ten [?\]: Hehe Ten [?\]: Ok, so d17 could work Finnish8d [-\]: yes ]))))))) (;B[jd]C[Ten [?\]: Ah, huh Ten [?\]: This time I'd take third line ]) (;B[jc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: hesitating ])) (;W[qq]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I thought w would do this ] ;B[rq]C[Ten [?\]: Thought about it, but looked gote ] ;W[pp] (;B[rm]) (;B[qs] ;W[pq]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Ah I see ]))) (;B[kk] ;W[kj]C[Ten [?\]: As far from the strong white wall as possible Finnish8d [-\]: still difficult though :P Ten [?\]: L9 is more like the direction anyway Finnish8d [-\]: sure Finnish8d [-\]: that is to expand space for b group itself Ten [?\]: But really, it's looking like black's invasion only lost black some more Finnish8d [-\]: K6 is too narrow Finnish8d [-\]: yes Finnish8d [-\]: it is locally a trade, with b taking points and w influence Finnish8d [-\]: but here w influence values too much ])) (;W[fm])) (;B[jc]C[Ten [?\]: I'll take high anytime Finnish8d [-\]: Ah 16 :P ]) (;B[jd]C[Ten [?\]: This seems kind of possible too Ten [?\]: Still, white n10 seems like a good point ] ;W[mj] ;B[fc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Hehe I like it :P Ten [?\]: Ok, I'll bite, I'll take l10 too ] ;W[kj] ;B[im]C[Ten [?\]: Ok, back to left Ten [?\]: D14 or whatever ] ;W[df]C[Ten [?\]: Saying that left side is white points as long as the centre looks like that Ten [?\]: Well, but could be that black could fight like this Finnish8d [-\]: Hehe I will still invade the left :P Finnish8d [-\]: but ok Ten [?\]: Sure, that's the "fight" part :) Finnish8d [-\]: at least b tenuki shouldn't hurt the centre Ten [?\]: And you know I invade the upper side Finnish8d [-\]: in the game it did, enormously Ten [?\]: Later on Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah sure Veivi [-\]: yeah Ten [?\]: Where by "invade" I mean "attack the black groups there" Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah, that is the value of w centre 2 Finnish8d [-\]: for left and top Finnish8d [-\]: I understand those Finnish8d [-\]: :D Ten [?\]: Hehe ]) (;B[jk]C[Finnish8d [-\]: ^^ Ten [?\]: This way I can aim either for the upper side or the left side next Ten [?\]: White can't have both Ten [?\]: And the pressing concern, the weak black group in the centre, is kind of fixed Veivi [-\]: right Finnish8d [-\]: Ok that helps for me to understand ^^ Finnish8d [-\]: I always suggest to tenuki when there is a weak group :P Ten [?\]: It can work too :) Ten [?\]: Somehow I've tried to develop a skill for efficient defending lately in insei games Ten [?\]: It's not that I'll lose by dying if I don't defend Ten [?\]: But usually it becomes a situation where the opponent can just push the weak group until he gets a definite lead Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah Ten [?\]: So keeping a situation where you're attacking and not being attacked is really vital Finnish8d [-\]: the value of a tenuki and potential loss of the weak group Ten [?\]: Right Ten [?\]: So that's actually the second part of my idea with k9 :) Ten [?\]: Trying to keep the value of tenuki low with keeping two possible areas to play next Ten [?\]: K17 or c14 Ten [?\]: So white doesn't have a single obviously good move next Ten [?\]: Just many promising-looking moves Finnish8d [-\]: yeah I see what you mean already : ) Finnish8d [-\]: so to add a move or not Finnish8d [-\]: the point is the value of the next move Ten [?\]: If there's a single obviously good move, then the player who gets it gets an altogether profit Ten [?\]: But if it's hard to pick the move, then you're not really profiting by playing it Ten [?\]: The total score more or less stays the same Finnish8d [-\]: Ok ^^ Ten [?\]: Like in endgame, you can have 6pts, 5.5pts, 4pts, 3pts and so on Ten [?\]: Similar values, hard to figure out which is biggest Ten [?\]: And even if you don't get it right, you lose little Ten [?\]: And then there could be 12pts, 7pts, 4pts Ten [?\]: That way you'll lose a lot if you make a mistake, but usually you can tell by a glance what the right move is Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah I see : ) Ten [?\]: Well, the rule of thumb is easy, just make the opponent's next move hard :) Finnish8d [-\]: I need to explain this to my students :P Ten [?\]: Hehe Finnish8d [-\]: But ok Ten [?\]: Guess we'd finish here, a bit early? Finnish8d [-\]: guess for this game, we may conclude here? Ten [?\]: Right Veivi [-\]: yeah Veivi [-\]: thanks for the game & stuff ])) (;B[ip]C[Ten [?\]: Kinda hard to find the spot on the bottom still, but around j4 I guess Ten [?\]: Now white would live with k3, probably ] ;W[jq] (;B[iq] ;W[jp]) (;B[jp]C[Ten [?\]: Yeah, that one is better Finnish8d [-\]: Yeah ok ]))) (;B[ip]C[Ten [?\]: Yeah, that's more interesting maybe ] (;W[ko] ;B[in] ;W[kn] ;B[ll]C[Veivi [-\]: definitely more interesting Veivi [-\]: riding the wagon Finnish8d [-\]: To me this way it is more natural Veivi [-\]: yee-haw Ten [?\]: Does white shoulder hit exist? Veivi [-\]: yeah, i like the flow Ten [?\]: I'd take that instead of l5 if possible ]) (;W[jo] ;B[kp]C[Veivi [-\]: cut works for b no? Ten [?\]: Timing is a bit difficult to work Ten [?\]: Would need p2+n2 before this, so no Ten [?\]: Yeah, kosumi then Finnish8d [-\]: Ok ] ;W[nr] ;B[or]C[Finnish8d [-\]: hmm ok ]))) (;B[nq] ;W[mp] ;B[mq] ;W[lp] ;B[qp] ;W[qo] ;B[rp]C[Ten [?\]: Jeff, I guess, "why play like this as black if black didn't choose r4 in the first place" Finnish8d [-\]: Guess this will be my way Ten [?\]: You'd take the corner immediately, too Finnish8d [-\]: Ah ])) (;B[qp]C[Veivi [-\]: i thought about getting the corner, but felt it was submissive ] ;W[qo] (;B[rp]C[Ten [?\]: I feel like playing around the star point now Seagal [1d\]: you mean b stones are so low all over? Finnish8d [-\]: you just picked a way to earn your life, that has nothing to do with submissive ^^ ]) (;B[pp] ;W[oo] (;B[np]) (;B[pj]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Guess this is what you meant? Ten [?\]: I'll take black o4 Ten [?\]: Ah, no, meant for white in the last Ten [?\]: For black it was fine Finnish8d [-\]: Ok Ten [?\]: If black q4, then black o4 for me too Ten [?\]: Starting to feel really good about the future turn at f4 ]))))