(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2] RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50] PW[Ten]PB[Veivi]BR[6d]DT[2015-10-18]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Ten [?\]: Have a nice game Veivi [6d?\]: hyvää peliä ]RE[W+Resign] (;B[pd] ;W[dp] ;B[pp] ;W[dd] ;B[fq] ;W[dn] ;B[dr] ;W[cq] ;B[iq] ;W[cj] ;B[pj] ;W[nc] ;B[kd] ;W[qc] ;B[qd] ;W[pc] ;B[od] ;W[nd] ;B[oc] ;W[ob]C[Ten [?\]: Wow, didn't see this in ages ] (;B[nb]C[Ten [?\]: Was there a special reason for this cut? Mokki [2d\]: yeah i feel like that too. you stopped to think after white played the obvious answer so I think this is what you meant about bad vibes and feeling off Finnish8d [-\]: no this cut doesn't exist :P sorry Finnish8d [-\]: hurt b whole structure Ten [?\]: I'd be thrown out of the insei league if I played this :) Finnish8d [-\]: :D ] ;W[mb] ;B[pb] ;W[na]C[Veivi [6d?\]: yeah ] ;B[qb] ;W[nf] ;B[fc] ;W[eb]LB[fe:A]TR[na][mb][ob][nc][nd][nf]C[Ten [?\]: And here black really needs a move around A Ten [?\]: To have to play around that group makes black's game too painful Veivi [6d?\]: the whole topside i was 100% lost Veivi [6d?\]: all game ] ;B[pg]C[Veivi [6d?\]: as evidenced by O18 Ten [?\]: It was fine to use more time :) ] ;W[fe] ;B[kf] ;W[jc] ;B[di] ;W[ci] ;B[dg] ;W[dh] ;B[eh] ;W[ch] ;B[eg] ;W[cf] ;B[hg] ;W[he] ;B[np] ;W[qp] ;B[qq] ;W[qo] ;B[rq] ;W[po] ;B[op] ;W[ql] ;B[rk] ;W[ol] ;B[rl] ;W[nk] ;B[lk] ;W[lm] ;B[nm] ;W[ml] ;B[pm] ;W[qm] (;B[nl]C[Veivi [6d?\]: igor cut Veivi [6d?\]: ugh ] ;W[ok]C[Mokki [2d\]: escaping into atari ] ;B[mk] ;W[nn] ;B[mm] ;W[mn] ;B[ll] ;W[om] ;B[ml] ;W[ln] ;B[ek] ;W[dl] ;B[hl] ;W[jd] ;B[lp] ;W[kh] ;B[ie] ;W[if] ;B[hf] ;W[hd] ;B[ig] ;W[ip] ;B[jq] ;W[hq] ;B[hr] ;W[jk] ;B[jl]C[Veivi [6d?\]: i had no faith in this plan, but didnt find options ] ;W[il] ;B[ik] ;W[im] ;B[jj] ;W[hk] ;B[kk] ;W[ij] (;B[gl]LB[dk:A]C[Ten [?\]: Mainly the ko attempt here should be a bit too hard to carry out Ten [?\]: After all, if black loses the ko, all of black's centre instantly becomes weak Ten [?\]: A is apparently the only threat black has ] ;W[jk] ;B[dk] ;W[ck] ;B[ik] ;W[hp] ;B[jk] ;W[gr] ;B[is] ;W[fr] ;B[cr] ;W[gq] ;B[bq] ;W[bp] ;B[dq] ;W[cp] ;B[ep] ;W[eo] ;B[fo] ;W[fn] ;B[go] ;W[gn] ;B[ho] ;W[fp] ;B[gp] ;W[io]C[Veivi [6d?\]: thanks for the game Ten [?\]: Kiitos Ten [?\]: Jeff, did you watch? Finnish8d [-\]: nope, still in my own :P Ten [?\]: Ah, ok Ten [?\]: Wondered if you'd have anything to say :) Finnish8d [-\]: one moment, will read it through Ten [?\]: Ok, thanks Finnish8d [-\]: hehe ok, b is too ambitious in general ^^ Ten [?\]: Oh, you put it that way Ten [?\]: Interesting Finnish8d [-\]: in any case bottom right corner cannot directly try to attack in that way Ten [?\]: If not for o8, it didn't seem bad Finnish8d [-\]: and to me cannot let w get K17 ^^ ]) (;B[jk] ;W[gl] ;B[hj] ;W[hm] ;B[gj]LB[je:E][ke:F][kh:B][ph:C][dj:D][kn:A]C[Ten [?\]: Something like this has to be expected from the centre Veivi [6d?\]: i thought there's no way this is enough Ten [?\]: With so many holes, black can't expect for a large territory Veivi [6d?\]: so not a path to victory Ten [?\]: At this point, the "path to victory" is "white mistakes" Ten [?\]: They will be less likely to occur if black's own shape remains weak Veivi [6d?\]: i guess Ten [?\]: "Trying to win the game" is incredibly hard to do Ten [?\]: "Trying not to lose the game" is a lot easier Veivi [6d?\]: its just that i do not find any mistakes for w to make with the shapes around MikGo [-\]: but this way is too simple for white to make a mistake Ten [?\]: You know, territory-wise black is not that far behind Ten [?\]: Make a count if you don't believe me Mokki [2d\]: maybe b could devise a plan to make use of P6 cut to get more area in center Ten [?\]: The A area is practically connected for white Ten [?\]: But white B is not completely in the clear, anyway Ten [?\]: I expect white will win this game by 10 points, but that's just because black's shape is still thin Ten [?\]: Things like C and D remain Ten [?\]: But if white goes to attach at C, black can try to mount a counter-attack looking at B Ten [?\]: If white does nothing around C and black gets the whole right-side territory, then black already profits a few points Ten [?\]: The E-F weakness is another minus for black Ten [?\]: And that's another thing that black can try to maneuvre around, in relation to B Ten [?\]: Do well over there and the game is instantly within 5 Veivi [6d?\]: i guess some confidence could be useful Ten [?\]: If that's the issue, then yes Ten [?\]: My feeling was that black needed more patience in this game Ten [?\]: Guess that's a flip side of Jeff's "too ambitious" Veivi [6d?\]: yeah, well Veivi [6d?\]: i often go for big swings just because i dont have any faith in a long, solid game played by me Veivi [6d?\]: sometimes big swings bring wins Ten [?\]: Hmm, I see Ten [?\]: Meaning the endgame is lacking, huh Ten [?\]: Sounds about right Veivi [6d?\]: i guess endgame is a problem yeah Mokki [2d\]: well you still can go for the big swings even if patient. Keeping the punch waiting in midgame is better than going all out Veivi [6d?\]: but also confidence, loss of energy and loss of concentration attribute to it Veivi [6d?\]: i know for a fact that being able to play a long, solid game is a prime requirement to being a strong player Ten [?\]: Different thing still to be able to do it alright Veivi [6d?\]: so it's not that i do not think it is important, i'm just... off. Veivi [6d?\]: yeah, that's what separates the strong from the weak Mokki [2d\]: well you are not weak Ten [?\]: All relative of course Veivi [6d?\]: im in a limbo Veivi [6d?\]: im not strong, nor weak. Mokki [2d\]: i'd say more like strong from good Ten [?\]: I don't know about the rest, but proper endgame practise will improve patience at least Ten [?\]: That way you train yourself to see how things will finally turn out Ten [?\]: But alright, let's finish here and I'll turn to the other game Veivi [6d?\]: endgame practice could bring confidence (not to mention better moves) for sure Veivi [6d?\]: yeah Veivi [6d?\]: thanks ])) (;B[om]C[Ten [?\]: I didn't know what I'd play here Finnish8d [-\]: yeah here b has to be patient Mokki [2d\]: veivi: you stopped to think after antti played the obvious move before igor cut. did you play the move before on feel? Ten [?\]: I guess even if white does the most ugly conneciton, it's still not in general bad since black's stones are dead weight Veivi [6d?\]: well, O7 was more of a question than a full plan Veivi [6d?\]: i just couldn't come up with anything else Ten [?\]: That's going to be one expensive question if you don't follow it up right away Ten [?\]: M9 was a nice spot Ten [?\]: Effectively punished white o9 Ten [?\]: Just the follow-up had to be more patient, as Jeff said ])) (;B[pb]C[Ten [?\]: You should know this joseki, right? Veivi [6d?\]: yeah ] ;W[qb] ;B[nb] ;W[pa] ;B[ne] ;W[me] ;B[md] ;W[mc] ;B[mb]C[Veivi [6d?\]: i really do not know what i was doing :P ] ;W[lc] ;B[ld] ;W[kb] ;B[nf])) (;B[pf] ;W[dd] ;B[np] ;W[dq] ;B[jd] ;W[po] ;B[pp]C[Ootakamoku [-\]: I gambled on purpose there, considering you are much stronger, I rather gamble on L&D and take big points ] ;W[qp] ;B[qq] ;W[qo] ;B[pq] ;W[qk] ;B[do] ;W[pd] (;B[nd]C[Ten [?\]: Veivi said almost the same thing... Finnish8d [-\]: yeah and I think I did something wrong there for sure Ten [?\]: I can't understand that reasoning ] ;W[pc] ;B[nf] ;W[nb]LB[jd:A]C[Ootakamoku [-\]: increase variance against stronger players, decrease variance against weakers, to maximize chance of winning Ten [?\]: I feel pessimistic as black already here :) Finnish8d [-\]: sure, b stones are not working together Ten [?\]: Oota, you think yourself strong enough to increase the variance evenly against us? Ootakamoku [-\]: ? Ten [?\]: Your imagination is probably, normally the result is n +-3 Ten [?\]: And that with increasing variation, you can make n+-15, and like that Ootakamoku [-\]: sure Ten [?\]: But it's probably more like -25, +5 Ootakamoku [-\]: hmm Ten [?\]: It's not like, just because you decide to make things difficult, the stronger player gets in trouble too Ootakamoku [-\]: actually, the way I think about icnreasing variance, is indeed that I ahve to pay something for it, as in positive increase is smaller than negative Ten [?\]: Ok, then in training sense it's out too Ootakamoku [-\]: but I dont consider it -25 +5, maybe more like -50, +15 Ten [?\]: You're not supposed to take losses knowingly Ootakamoku [-\]: hmm Ten [?\]: Doesn't it defeat the purpose of training? Ootakamoku [-\]: ya, I guess in training its bad strategy Ten [?\]: So anyway here, black A is off Ten [?\]: This way black is a half-stone behind ] ;B[cf] ;W[di] (;B[eh]LB[dd:B][di:A][do:C]C[Ten [?\]: This one is wrong direction Ten [?\]: A and B, which one do you want to attack again? Ootakamoku [-\]: dno, both look difficult Ootakamoku [-\]: but I guess A Ten [?\]: It should be A Ten [?\]: Since you've got C there waiting too Ten [?\]: E12 needlessly leans on A, making it stronger Ten [?\]: And making C weaker Ootakamoku [-\]: but how do I attack it? ] ;W[ei] ;B[fh] ;W[fi] ;B[gh] ;W[fc] ;B[gi] ;W[dl]LB[gi:A][qk:B]C[Ten [?\]: Usually, black would be happy getting A Ten [?\]: But in this game, white strengthened both his gorups, and the black centre doesn't exist anyway Ten [?\]: If the right side looked different and white B didn't exist, then black could maybe be happy Ten [?\]: But not in this game where black had a chance to attack and wasted it ] ;B[go] ;W[gq]C[Ten [?\]: Hmm, but it has to be there, huh ] (;B[ol]C[Ootakamoku [-\]: this is one of those spots where you and ten might play differently from everyone else Ten [?\]: The centre is still nothing to me, here... ] ;W[pj]C[Ootakamoku [-\]: ok, so didnt see that move :( ] ;B[ql] ;W[rl] ;B[qm] ;W[rm] ;B[oj]C[Finnish8d [-\]: too many holes ] ;W[ok] ;B[nk] ;W[pk] ;B[nj] ;W[gl] ;B[pi] (;W[il]C[Ten [?\]: Is this jump big? Ten [?\]: Aha :) Ten [?\]: I get the feeling like black has a chance this way Ten [?\]: Now it feels like white has to be able to carry the attack off too ] ;B[hk] ;W[gn] ;B[gp] ;W[hq] (;B[hl]C[Ten [?\]: Ok, this doesn't exist for sure ] (;W[hn]C[Finnish8d [-\]: yeah ] ;B[im] ;W[dp] (;B[dm] ;W[cl] ;B[cm] ;W[co] ;B[fm] ;W[fn]TR[dl][fn][dp]C[Ten [?\]: Finisher shape Ootakamoku [-\]: elephant jump for da kill Ten [?\]: Ok, let's finish here :) Ten [?\]: Double elephant, actually Ootakamoku [-\]: thx for the game & review Finnish8d [-\]: :D Finnish8d [-\]: Thanks ^^ Ten [?\]: See you next month then, good luck for the team ] ;B[en] ;W[gm]C[Ten [?\]: After this, it seems impossible ] ;B[el]C[Finnish8d [-\]: sorry was reading the other game :P Ootakamoku [-\]: np ] ;W[ek] (;B[cn] ;W[bo] ;B[bl] ;W[bk] ;B[fo] ;W[fl] ;B[ck] ;W[dk] ;B[bj] ;W[cj] ;B[ak] ;W[bi] ;B[bn] ;W[ep] ;B[cp] ;W[bp] ;B[am] ;W[aj] ;B[eo] ;W[em] ;B[ip] ;W[hp] ;B[in] ;W[ho] ;B[cc] ;W[cd] ;B[dc] ;W[ec] ;B[bd] ;W[be] ;B[bc] ;W[ce] ;B[bf] ;W[ae] ;B[ed] ;W[fe] ;B[gd] ;W[fd] ;B[ef] ;W[ee] ;B[db] ;W[eb]C[Ootakamoku [-\]: oops ] ;B[jq]C[Ten [?\]: I guess you should turn to review soon? Finnish8d [-\]: any time I guess : ) ] ;W[no]C[Finnish8d [-\]: thanks Ootakamoku [-\]: thank you Finnish8d [-\]: I think b could have lived on the left Ten [?\]: There was something fishy there alright Ootakamoku [-\]: ya, I thought so Ten [?\]: Want me to do the review? Finnish8d [-\]: sure please : ) ]) (;B[dk]C[Finnish8d [-\]: yeah Ten [?\]: By correct technique it's probably here Finnish8d [-\]: this is something at least Ten [?\]: But even like this, I don't see how black can make it out ] ;W[ck] ;B[fk] ;W[dj] ;B[fo] ;W[io]C[Ten [?\]: Nothing, right? Finnish8d [-\]: nothing Ootakamoku [-\]: this I atleast read Finnish8d [-\]: ok ^^ ])) (;B[cn]C[Ten [?\]: If here? Ootakamoku [-\]: oh.. Ten [?\]: Not sure if it's good yet, just trying Ten [?\]: Still white c8? Finnish8d [-\]: has to be Finnish8d [-\]: then you ko ] ;W[cl] ;B[cp] ;W[cq] ;B[bq]C[Ten [?\]: And then the question is if b5 exists Ten [?\]: Probably too risky here? Finnish8d [-\]: hmm I know from the start, that this group is not easy to attack, and centre is small Finnish8d [-\]: then I turned to Oota's logic :P Ten [?\]: Yeah, that's the feeling I got :) Ten [?\]: If black got a ko life in here, then black got both the centre and handled the corner ])) (;W[hm]LB[hl:A]C[Ten [?\]: Also isn't white here? :) Finnish8d [-\]: that is what he wants, so I ruled it out directly :P Ten [?\]: I thought this is what white wants too :D Finnish8d [-\]: so he will cut Ten [?\]: A shouldn't exist in the first place, with the corner that weak Finnish8d [-\]: and I have to seal in gote, right? Ten [?\]: And if white just played the shape, I'd have no idea what black is doing :) Ootakamoku [-\]: c3 here? ] ;B[im] ;W[in] ;B[jm] ;W[jn]C[Ten [?\]: Not a terrible gote, that Ten [?\]: ...Right? Finnish8d [-\]: I bet Oota will answer :P Ten [?\]: It doesn't look to me like black gained anything this way ] ;B[km]C[Ootakamoku [-\]: I would answer yes ] ;W[cq]C[Ten [?\]: Let's take the corner then Ten [?\]: J4 for escape huh ] ;B[ip] ;W[kn]C[Finnish8d [-\]: centre was small, I'd stick on that line ^^ Ootakamoku [-\]: uh.. ] ;B[lm] ;W[ep]LB[mc:C][hd:A][ld:D][ie:B]C[Ten [?\]: Pretty sure I caught some black stones :) Finnish8d [-\]: yes Ootakamoku [-\]: cant play m7, ya Finnish8d [-\]: right, so centre is small Ten [?\]: Going to be white A, black B, white C, black D Ten [?\]: At least it feels black has to do the lower left more solidly first Ten [?\]: This kind of white territory can't be allowed ])) (;B[fn]C[Finnish8d [-\]: ok so I made a commitment to voters, again. :P Ten [?\]: If hane? Finnish8d [-\]: has to nobi, but yeah it is not a shape at all ] ;W[hn] ;B[cq]C[Ten [?\]: Suddenly seems like black might be able to get sabaki Ten [?\]: If hane, then clamp of course Finnish8d [-\]: yeah ]) (;B[cq]C[Ten [?\]: Then do it here Ten [?\]: That push is a loss Ootakamoku [-\]: ah, yes, sure ] ;W[cr]LB[gn:A]C[Ootakamoku [-\]: e3? Ten [?\]: If black gets a good result now, then it's probably white A's fault ] ;B[eq] ;W[dp]C[Ten [?\]: Has to be here, huh ] ;B[ep]C[Finnish8d [-\]: right ] ;W[cp] ;B[ip]C[Ten [?\]: So yes, black does get out Ten [?\]: Though the centre doesn't exist in this scenario either Ten [?\]: But this should still be black's way to go ])) (;W[cq]C[Ten [?\]: How about this direction? Finnish8d [-\]: ah directly there Finnish8d [-\]: I was between jump and J4 Ten [?\]: Ah, yeah, I don't feel like j4 either Ten [?\]: This way it seems like white will get to play j8 or j4 naturally Ten [?\]: (or j3) Finnish8d [-\]: yeah ]) (;W[gj]C[Ten [?\]: If for the centre, isn't it here? Finnish8d [-\]: hmm Finnish8d [-\]: more like a shape, true Ten [?\]: And the follow-up is stronger Finnish8d [-\]: I was considering b group just :P Finnish8d [-\]: so only listed myself jump and J4 ])) (;B[ok]C[Ten [?\]: So cap? Ootakamoku [-\]: ok Finnish8d [-\]: yes that is harder to answer ] ;W[qi]C[Ten [?\]: I still don't like it for black Ten [?\]: But this "works" at least Ootakamoku [-\]: g8? Finnish8d [-\]: already like this, then has to continue on this line :P Ten [?\]: There's still p11 ] (;B[oi]C[Finnish8d [-\]: peep? Finnish8d [-\]: I mean b ]) (;B[pj] ;W[qj]C[Ootakamoku [-\]: peep and then g8? Finnish8d [-\]: then G9? ] (;B[gk]C[Finnish8d [-\]: the best I can imagine Ten [?\]: I see Ten [?\]: For our purposes, I guess this "passes" Finnish8d [-\]: stil it is not big Ten [?\]: But I feel like there's a game-ending sequence on the right now ] ;W[oi] ;B[pi] ;W[ph] ;B[oh]C[Finnish8d [-\]: ah ok ] ;W[og] ;B[nh] ;W[pg] ;B[of] ;W[oj] ;B[pk] ;W[ng] ;B[mg] ;W[mh] ;B[ni] ;W[nj] ;B[mi]C[Finnish8d [-\]: get you ^^ Ten [?\]: Something ] ;W[nl]) (;B[ph]C[Ten [?\]: So I'd still fix here ]) (;B[pl] ;W[ql] ;B[ph]C[Ten [?\]: And, yes, finally not so big Ten [?\]: But I guess it has to be this Ten [?\]: Otherwise the previous plan doesn't work Finnish8d [-\]: right ])))) (;B[ef] ;W[fc] ;B[dk]C[Ootakamoku [-\]: jump out and then c8? Ootakamoku [-\]: oh. Ten [?\]: Normal stuff Finnish8d [-\]: yes Ootakamoku [-\]: hmm ] ;W[fi] ;B[gd] ;W[fd] ;B[gf]C[Ten [?\]: Something like this Finnish8d [-\]: that is your target, so attack it ^^ Ten [?\]: For example Finnish8d [-\]: straight forward logic : ) ])) (;B[nc]C[Ten [?\]: I guess black needed a low approach Ten [?\]: Oota is going to say... ] ;W[nd]C[Ootakamoku [-\]: ah, looks bette rwith k16 ] ;B[md] ;W[ne] ;B[oc] ;W[pe] ;B[qb]C[Ten [?\]: ...That now white gets in the centre and gets the right side to boot Ten [?\]: So now the centre plan disappears Ten [?\]: But this way, the black *stones* are working Ootakamoku [-\]: but q3 is somewhat territory oriented, so it looks ok Ten [?\]: Yeah, it has to be that way ])))