(;FF[4]
GM[1]
DT[2015-11-08]
PC[OGS: http://online-go.com/game/review/87184]
PB[Ootakamoku]
PW[Ten]
BR[2d]
WR[7d]
CP[online-go.com]
RE[W+R]
SZ[19]
KM[6.5]
RU[japanese]

;B[qd]C[

-- chat --
JeffChang: I didn't see here earlier at all :P

]

;W[pp]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Ah :D

]

;B[dc]
;W[dp]
;B[cn]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Maybe easier to use the normal chat?

]

;W[dl]
;B[en]C[


-- chat --
Ten: I find that comment text box kind of odd
Ten: You should have a usual text box below?
Ootakamoku: bottom
Ten: Scroll down?
Ootakamoku: where it reads "chat..."

]

;W[fp]
;B[di]
;W[cg]
;B[eh]
;W[de]
(;B[fd]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: ok, regardless what I want to do should exchange c16
JeffChang: cannot let w live too easy ^^
JeffChang: that is the meaning of your pincer initially, right?

]

;W[cc]
;B[cb]
;W[cd]C[

-- chat --
Ten: White will play b11 no matter if black takes b18 or e18
Ten: So e18 is better, right?

]

(;B[bb]C[

-- chat --
Ten: D11 does say like it wants to fight alright

]

;W[bi]C[

-- chat --
Ten: I'll play e18 instead of b18 here
Ten: White lives easy *and* black is left with bad aji

]

;B[ff]
;W[cj]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: I thought I would just give up the c6 stones after I use them
Ootakamoku: but w didnt want them..
Ten: Obviously :)
JeffChang: Hehe so just directly let them go ^^
Ten: Those two stones are the smallest thing in the world after c10
Ootakamoku: but didnt they become valuable once I stole the corner?
Ootakamoku: or useful that is
Ten: More so, anyway, since after that black could possibly attack white's corner
Ten: But now, compared to the upper side, that area is in general small
JeffChang: They are, under the price of defunctioning your wall
Ootakamoku: ok
Ten: If white lives on the upper side easily, the black stones at f14, e12, d11 lose their meaning
Ootakamoku: so antti, where would you response if I played l16?
Ten: Well, as you want to make your point, I'll play the lower left

]

(;B[cq]C[

-- chat --
Ten: C3 is big, but still...
JeffChang: Yes, just wanna say this
Ootakamoku: I was worried how useless c6 stones become if you play c4
JeffChang: cannot care about those 2 stones anymore
JeffChang: whole board goes first
JeffChang: Right, but you have to consider about the efficiency of your wall first
Ten: Too bad it's b18 and not e18
Ten: If it was e18, something like black o17 would be nice balance
JeffChang: those 2 stones will have to be fishing group away from your moyo
Ten: Now it feels more like l16
Ten: M17, maybe?
Ten: M17 feels marginally better than l16, but anyway
Ootakamoku: since w committed to bottom left
Ten: To build the moyo, m15 after m17 is also nice
Ootakamoku: oh, ok
Ten: Or possibly q14
Ten: Anyway, let's go on :)
JeffChang: Ok ^^

]

;W[cp]
;B[bp]
;W[lc]
;B[jc]
;W[oc]
;B[br]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Probably black should take the upper side instead of c3?

]

;W[pg]
;B[pe]
;W[qb]
;B[nd]
;W[nc]
(;B[nf]
;W[qk]
(;B[hq]C[

-- chat --
Ten: I thought the game is not so much worse though?

]

;W[go]
(;B[nq]C[

-- chat --
Ten: I thought this "normal"

]

(;W[or]C[

-- chat --
Ten: But this is something like l4 for sure

]

(;B[qm]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Japanese is 相場, I wonder if it makes sense in Chinese
JeffChang: Cos this invasion is saying 'no not fine'
Ten: Right
JeffChang: Ah this one I have no idea :P
JeffChang: that term I mean

]

;W[pn]
;B[pm]C[

-- chat --
48urhbfjieo3: what about black q8 instead of q7?

]

;W[om]
;B[qn]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: ya, stabilizes the bottom, weakanes left side, and I sort of will get r7 anwyays?
Ootakamoku: after l4 that is
Ten: Nah, I'd defend the side
Ootakamoku: oh, ok
Ten: 場 is probably "place" as in "abstract situation"

]

;W[ol]C[

-- chat --
JeffChang: Yeah that is understandable
Ten: 相 as mutual
Ten: So it's "what both sides should expect"
Ten: As a result
JeffChang: aha get it ^^
Ten: Is there a Chinese word for that?
JeffChang: 先相先
JeffChang: No, but I got the meaning from here ^^
Ootakamoku: I feel like I tried too much in this fight.. 
Ten: Ok :)

]

;B[po]
;W[oo]
;B[on]
;W[nn]
;B[qp]
;W[oq]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Interesting, 先相先 is a handicap system in Japanese go...
zife: Ten: 相場 = market price
Ten: zife, I don't buy that Fairbairn translation
JeffChang: Right
zife: it's not a fairbairn translation
zife: that's the literal meaning
Ten: Pretty sure it is?
Ten: Huh, okay
zife: １）市場で競争売買によって決まる商品の値段・価格。
JeffChang: Q8 is a wrong shape.
48urhbfjieo3: ok thank you
Ten: Zife, is it Fairbairn who first tried to use it in go?
JeffChang: Sorry I can only tell this much
Ten: I didn't see anybody but him use it
JeffChang: so in that kind of situation, Q8 is not a move that should be considered
JeffChang: Here

]

(;B[pk]
;W[pl]
;B[ql]
;W[qj]
;B[ok]
;W[qq]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Here
JeffChang: ko
Ten: R5

]

(;B[pn]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: I thought this way I would live and maintain p9 stones use
JeffChang: and this connect is unacceptable...
Ootakamoku: didnt pan outy so well
JeffChang: Ok
Ootakamoku: since I just cant fight the ko
JeffChang: well my thought was to fight the ko, to me you have no choice
Ootakamoku: but no threat big enough on the board
JeffChang: left side is pretty big
Ten: Big enough for what?
Ootakamoku: big enough to compensate for dying on right side
JeffChang: since after that w has 2 weak groups at left and bottom left 
Ten: If you play the right-side situation out as normal, oyu take a loss anyway
Ten: What you're supposed to count is, if that "loss" is bigger or smaller than the difference in the ko exchange
Ten: Pretty sure the ko exchange is better for black in this game
JeffChang: Ok that is a good point ^^
Ootakamoku: hmm
Ootakamoku: but h3 will lost its value, and q9 stones will lose value, if I fight the ko and lose, not just about losing the group
Ootakamoku: lots of wasted moves too
JeffChang: so as w left side E8 or so, if you count it this way :P
Ten: Is that losing of value more than 35 points?
Ootakamoku: and I felt like its inevitable I lose the ko if I fight it, I might regret setting the situation up, but.. once Im here really fgight the ko I lose?
Ten: More than 35, actually, since then white's remaining stones on left are weak
Ootakamoku: hmm
Ootakamoku: ten, I would think its in the same ballpark
Ten: What's that mean?
Ootakamoku: similar in size
Ten: Then you should do it, right?
Ootakamoku: hmm
Ten: "Local loss" vs. "even exchange"
JeffChang: that is exactly the reason you have to do it :P
Ootakamoku: hmm, even tho it makes my last few moves look bad?
Ten: Sure, all you care about is if the exchange is fair or not
Ten: White c13 etc. will look bad too
Ootakamoku: ok
Ootakamoku: I naivly thought w would save r10 stones
JeffChang: think for both sides efficiency
JeffChang: you can accept it a lot easier
Ten: I should have saved r10 :)
Ootakamoku: which would allow me to live on the right side, and get sente to move to bottom
Ten: In the game I played s9 too early on impulse
Ten: And then the flow got worse
Ten: Ok, go forward?
JeffChang: sure

]

;W[mo]
;B[rp]
;W[rq]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: t6 marginally better?
Ten: Pretty sure black o9 is a good exchange

]

(;B[ro]
;W[nk]
;B[pi]C[

-- chat --
JeffChang: ok ^^
JeffChang: sure
JeffChang: so in the game you thought w could do like p11 right?
Ten: Yeah
JeffChang: hehe get it ^^

]

(;W[rk]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: I presume it doesnt work
Ten: I attach s12 and you die all
Ootakamoku: but tried reading it in the game
Ootakamoku: yup yup
Ootakamoku: I lose the semeai?
Ootakamoku: I sort of read it as a seki, which is no good
Ten: By at least one, probably two
Ootakamoku: ok
Ten: Ok, one

]

;B[rl]C[

-- chat --
Ten: And sure it doesn't work

]

;W[nj]
;B[oi]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: what happens if I answr s9 with r12?

]

;W[ni]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: aargh, I made a reading mistake for r4 group l&d
Ten: S9...
Ootakamoku: somehow missread not alive with s9 and t8
Ten: Get o10 first
Ten: Then play s12, I guess

]

(;B[qh]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Go a bit forward?

]

;W[qg]
;B[rh]
;W[ng]C[

-- chat --
Ten: P12 was good, but leave it at that
Ootakamoku: I regretted it as soon as I played it
Ootakamoku: naively first read I can afford the cut
Ootakamoku: only realizing I cant after I had already pushed
Ten: P12-p13 and then turn or jump

]

(;B[oh]
;W[og]
(;B[nh]
;W[mh]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: since black can use o8 if white starts fighting the top
Ten: Possibly yeah
Ootakamoku: I guess q17 exchange is rather painful way to prevent the fight..
zife: re: 相場, you probably associate market price with fairbairn because no one else talks about the concept in the west but him
Ten: Zife, yeah
Ten: Maybe we'd conclude here?
JeffChang: Sure
Ten: Thanks
JeffChang: Thanks ^^
Ten: I'll do the uploading
JeffChang: Please
48urhbfjieo3: gg both thanks for the review

]

(;B[rg]
;W[mf]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Oota, sure, you can "afford" it
Ten: If you don't play it, white plays o12
Ootakamoku: sure sure.. but I meant if b also cuts
Ootakamoku: which I couldnt do
Ten: \[20:36\] Ootakamoku \[2d\]: I read I can afford the o12 n13 cut before I play s14
Ten: Oh, n13 too, I see
Ten: Sorry then
Ten: Ok, yeah, that's a quick game over
Ten: Jeff, did you ever see the final tsumego before?
JeffChang: final tsumego? 
JeffChang: I might, but not with this name. :P
Ten: Maybe it's 官子譜 or so
JeffChang: Ah, I have read a bit in this case.
Ten: I'm not sure
Ten: I feel I'd seen it somewhere
Ten: Just couldn't tell where
JeffChang: and there is a shape similar to this in the game? :P
Ten: I mean, go forward

]

;B[jp]C[

-- chat --
Ten: And white n14 becomes the most perfect shape ever
Ootakamoku: as in.. I die with the whole group is I try..

]

;W[rf]
;B[re]
;W[qf]
;B[sf]
;W[qe]C[

-- chat --
Ten: After black r17
Ootakamoku: and s16 here

]

;B[rc]C[

-- chat --
Ten: This black shape is still fine
Ten: But r17 is something like a losing move
JeffChang: Yes
Ten: So I just wondered if the final white top right corner shape is something famous or not

]

;W[pd]
(;B[qc]C[

-- chat --
JeffChang: aha I see
Ootakamoku: assuming I live with the b group, how far behind am I?
Ootakamoku: 10 points?

]

;W[oj]C[

-- chat --
Ten: So that's q17 instead of r17

]

;B[pj]
;W[sg]
;B[se]
;W[qi]
;B[ph]
;W[ri]
;B[sh]
;W[rb]
;B[pc]
;W[od]
;B[pb]
;W[si]
;B[sg]
;W[sc]
;B[rd]
;W[ob]C[Ok get it ^^

-- chat --
Ten: Yeah, like that
Ten: Now it's almost like KGS
Ootakamoku: below where our text appears
Ten: It should be right below the box where you see text now
JeffChang: ah ok
Ten: Ok :)
JeffChang: So I type here
JeffChang: Get it :D
Ten: Well, either is fine, but I prefer this way
Ten: Feels more like talking then

]

)(;B[pc]
;W[od]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: I guess that w thickness will become more points, so prboably further behind than 10 even if I live
Ootakamoku: I tried to play as "rational and reasonable" in this game as I could
Ootakamoku: k4 was maintaining balance
Ootakamoku: if I answer topright I feel like I lose instantly territory balance and no way to catch up
Ootakamoku: ya

]

(;B[qc]
)(;B[rb]
;W[qc]
;B[rd]
;W[pb]
;B[ra]C[

-- chat --
Ten: This, right?. From move 86: Q17 P16 S18 R17 S16 Q18 S19 
JeffChang: true ^^
JeffChang: but you have to live first :P
Ten: Territory is pretty even
Ten: Black just a bit ahead
Ten: So it's about that white wall and that black weak group
JeffChang: so I doubt about b K4
JeffChang: probably adding a move on top right is the must
Ten: Top right is normal, yeah
JeffChang: balance is off already...
Ten: White's getting this sente capture is big
Ten: It feels like white can even pull h17 off now
JeffChang: Alright ^^
JeffChang: Actually balance is off at the moment when you refused the ko
Ten: Yeah, that's the key moment for sure
JeffChang: before that it was still a game

]

)))(;B[mg]
(;W[mf]
;B[lg]
;W[ne]
;B[rf]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: somethign silly like this. From move 76: N13 N14 M13 O15 S14 
Ootakamoku: it was sort of cool, too bad I was at the wrong end of the stick

]

)(;W[pj]
;B[rg]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: maybe black could play like this?. From move 76: N13 Q10 S13 
Ootakamoku: because white cant fight n13, or o8 is actiated which buys me 1 magic lib unless I missread.

]

;W[oj]
;B[pc]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: like this.. From move 76: N13 Q10 S13 P10 Q17 
Ootakamoku: sure
Ootakamoku: thank you for the game & review.

]

))(;B[nm]
;W[nl]
;B[mg]
(;W[pj]
;B[rg]C[

-- chat --
JeffChang: Might be better than the game, yes
Ten: I guess I'm okay with the exchange
Ten: Should be white sente

]

;W[oj]C[

-- chat --
JeffChang: I think it is b :P
Ten: Oh, r14 is no problem?

]

;B[jp]
;W[qf]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: skip o7 ecchange
Ootakamoku: its nice if top works out
Ootakamoku: but its usefull if white intends to fight the top

]

(;B[re]C[

-- chat --
Ten: This is out, right?
Ten: S14, r15, start cutting
Ootakamoku: black could renegitate again with q17?

]

;W[rf]
;B[sf]
;W[qe]C[

-- chat --
JeffChang: nvm
Ootakamoku: renegotiate*
Ten: Oh, q16 is fine?
Ten: Interesting

]

(;B[of]
)(;B[pd]C[

-- chat --
Ten: No it's not
Ten: Nevermind
JeffChang: hehe ok :D
Ten: So s14 instead of s15, take the liberty

]

))(;B[rf]C[

-- chat --
Ten: But that doesn't work either
Ootakamoku: but black gets r18 now?
Ten: Oh wait, does it?
Ten: THis is fine huh
Ootakamoku: it is?
Ten: This white is dead, yeah
Ten: If black can take sente to play k4, I'm inclined to say "no" and fight instead of just taking the exchange
Ten: Black doesn't play s15 but q16

]

;W[qe]
(;B[re]
;W[mf]
;B[lg]
;W[ne]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: what now?. From move 76: O7 O8 N13 Q10 S13 P10 K4 R14 S14 R15 S15 N14 M13 O15 

]

)(;B[pd]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Yeah, that
Ten: Just look at what Jeff's doing :)
JeffChang: ^^
Ootakamoku: duh
Ootakamoku: cool one
JeffChang: aha :D

]

)(;B[rd]
;W[mf]
;B[lg]
;W[ne]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: still, not sure what to do about this, looks like ko... From move 76: O7 O8 N13 Q10 S13 P10 K4 R14 S14 R15 S16 N14 M13 O15 
Ootakamoku: oh..
Ootakamoku: q16..

]

)))(;W[mf]
;B[lg]
;W[oe]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Fight's on. From move 76: O7 O8 N13 N14 M13 P15 
Ten: That was my original idea, anyway, if black cuts
Ten: Fine, I'll give up one stone anytime anyway

]

)))(;B[rf]C[

-- chat --
JeffChang: right 
Ootakamoku: I read I can afford the o12 n13 cut before I play s14
Ootakamoku: so that I can make use of o8 later
Ten: One-move difference basically

]

))(;B[rf]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: losing the liberty hurt

]

))(;B[og]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Yeah, it's more annoying if black resists here :)

]

;W[qh]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: but w lives trivially?
JeffChang: yeah w should still be fine
Ootakamoku: so improvement for b over earlier w life
Ten: Actually, the game had a fine sequence too

]

;B[oh]
;W[rf]C[

-- chat --
Ten: This kind of shape. From move 68: P13 R12 P12 S14 

]

))(;W[nj]
;B[oi]
;W[rh]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Like this. From move 63: O10 P11 S12 

]

;B[ni]
;W[qf]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Comfortable white life?. From move 63: O10 P11 S12 O11 R14 

]

))(;B[rk]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: oh, nvm, its not
Ten: And s9 for the right side of course
JeffChang: sure
JeffChang: ah that first

]

)(;B[nk]
;W[ml]
;B[rk]
;W[rj]
;B[sl]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Yeah, it's supposed to look like this
Ootakamoku: uhoh.
Ten: Then o13 etc

]

;W[ng]
))(;B[qo]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: oh..
JeffChang: Aha ok ^^
Ootakamoku: andI use q11 as a local threat for ko?
Ootakamoku: if w plays s3..
Ten: I'll play hardest
Ten: s4

]

;W[rp]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: but doesnt this give me more threats for ko?
Ten: Well, in a sense
Ten: But then you also pay in terms of o5
Ootakamoku: hmm
JeffChang: So he will finish the ko and let you get the corner
Ten: I want you to play those few moves on the outside, then make some ponnuki shape
Ten: Yes
Ootakamoku: right..
Ten: But anyway, black seems like fighting this way, too
JeffChang: so my threat was at B12 in any case :P
Ten: Yeah, I'll give that group up I think
JeffChang: Right
Ten: Unless you play b12 now
JeffChang: then you are right
JeffChang: this exchange is better
Ten: If you exchange b12-c12, then we have a discussion
Ootakamoku: lol, I did consider b12, but I was worried that the aji is scary even after that
Ootakamoku: for the ko that is
Ootakamoku: wasnt sure I get 100% clean kill with b12 threat
JeffChang: yeah my idea was B12 to make it bigger, then ko :P
Ten: There's that kind of issue too, yeah
Ten: Jeff, ah, yeah :)
JeffChang: cos there are 2 threats, right? ^^
Ten: In that case, yeah
Ten: Wait, just one
Ten: I'll only answer c11
JeffChang: at b10?
Ten: Yeah
JeffChang: and you will ignore b C14
Ten: Right
JeffChang: well then it has to be that way ^^
Ten: I'll be happy to, with black b18 :)
Ten: If black had e18, then I'd think about it
JeffChang: yeah ok :D
JeffChang: back there
JeffChang: but anyway, this 1 and 2 is good exchange in any case ^^
Ten: Yeah

]

))(;B[qq]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: just take corner..
Ootakamoku: ya
Ten: Capture, then
JeffChang: I actually don't like it
Ootakamoku: now I can easierly fight the q9 later
JeffChang: but looks like the only way

]

;W[pn]
;B[qo]
;W[kq]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Jeff, I saw something better in the game, we'll see in a bit
Ten: Yeah, like this
Ten: Then try something on the lower side
JeffChang: I don't like this b
Ten: Ok, back to game
Ten: Q9 etc
JeffChang: cos the direction is against the battle
Ten: I saw something more like fighting

]

))(;B[kp]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: hmm, right

]

;W[pn]
))(;W[pn]
;B[kp]
;W[or]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Yeah, that I'd be fine with
Ten: I thought black'd take the corner
Ootakamoku: but p2 looks a bit slow?
Ootakamoku: in this tewari..
Ten: I don't see anything bigger on the board?
JeffChang: Ah I mean it is like this order ^^
Ten: Jeff, yeah, I know
Ten: As far as I see, 3 is the biggest area on this board?
Ootakamoku: ya, sure
JeffChang: Yeah sure
Ootakamoku: just didnt look all over, somehow assumed its too early, but ya, nothing left
JeffChang: just very fine to b, I am sayiing
Ten: But if I play this order, black won't play 2 but take the corner
Ootakamoku: so biggest yose
Ten: Yeah, black is fine too of course

]

))(;B[jp]C[

-- chat --
Ten: It was hard for white to do anything about h3
Ten: Ah, this I play m3 without thinking again
Ootakamoku: I didnt want to let white have l3..
Ootakamoku: er.. m3
JeffChang: That is not the topic right? :P
JeffChang: w group is the topic
Ten: Hmm
Ootakamoku: but how can I profit from the w group?
Ten: I don't feel like black can do much about it, either, yeah
JeffChang: Alright

]

))(;B[ip]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: 2 space high if anything?
JeffChang: This is more like attacking right?
JeffChang: there isn't base on the 3rd line anyway
Ten: I wonder how big a difference there is
Ten: Now it's white f6

]

;W[fn]
;B[em]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Oh, thne pincer
Ten: *then

]

;W[kq]
;B[go]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Connect

]

;W[fo]
;B[im]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Ok, kind of an attack
JeffChang: ^^
JeffChang: in theory high is to attack, low is not :P
Ten: I feel like saying "no" with l5, but maybe it's scary
JeffChang: aha ok :D

]

))(;B[md]C[

-- chat --
JeffChang: I cannot bare that shape..
Ten: Hehe
Ten: White connect alright

]

;W[mc]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Then feels like pincer?

]

(;B[ng]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Oh, that way

]

)(;B[pj]
;W[ng]C[

-- chat --
Ten: I thought one space low
Ootakamoku: how about r11?
Ten: Yeah, that

]

)(;B[qi]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Then kosumi and keima to q9 or so

]

;W[oh]
;B[pk]C[

-- chat --
Ten: ...Is what I thought, anyway
JeffChang: Ok, so for now the shape is not suffering, yet
Ootakamoku: sofar all 4 things you have pointed out, are moves I have thought about, but somehow didnt play :(
Ten: Cap is kind of good shape as well, but then white gets the extension and it kind of feels like black isn't doing anything
Ten: I want to get r11 no matter what as black
JeffChang: Ok ^^

]

)))(;B[kd]C[

-- chat --
Ten: That's the next biggest after the upper side
Ten: Descent, feels like

]

;W[cp]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Then black f7 or so
Ten: And then life goes on
Ootakamoku: okies

]

)(;B[lc]C[

-- chat --
Ootakamoku: even tho b gets next move to build moyo?

]

))(;B[eb]C[

-- chat --
JeffChang: Of course ^^
Ootakamoku: right
JeffChang: since b cannot attack anyway

]

))(;B[cd]C[

-- chat --
Ten: Black should play tighter here, yeah
Ten: In the game white took everything
JeffChang: My feeling is this kosumi
Ten: Same
Ten: Block, kosumi, keima

]

;W[ce]C[

-- chat --
Ten: That kind of feeling

]

;B[ed]
;W[bi]C[

-- chat --
JeffChang: Right, 

]

))