(;FF[4] GM[1] DT[2015-11-08] PC[OGS: http://online-go.com/game/review/87184] PB[Ootakamoku] PW[Ten] BR[2d] WR[7d] CP[online-go.com] RE[W+R] SZ[19] KM[6.5] RU[japanese] ;B[qd]C[ -- chat -- JeffChang: I didn't see here earlier at all :P ] ;W[pp]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Ah :D ] ;B[dc] ;W[dp] ;B[cn]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Maybe easier to use the normal chat? ] ;W[dl] ;B[en]C[ -- chat -- Ten: I find that comment text box kind of odd Ten: You should have a usual text box below? Ootakamoku: bottom Ten: Scroll down? Ootakamoku: where it reads "chat..." ] ;W[fp] ;B[di] ;W[cg] ;B[eh] ;W[de] (;B[fd]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: ok, regardless what I want to do should exchange c16 JeffChang: cannot let w live too easy ^^ JeffChang: that is the meaning of your pincer initially, right? ] ;W[cc] ;B[cb] ;W[cd]C[ -- chat -- Ten: White will play b11 no matter if black takes b18 or e18 Ten: So e18 is better, right? ] (;B[bb]C[ -- chat -- Ten: D11 does say like it wants to fight alright ] ;W[bi]C[ -- chat -- Ten: I'll play e18 instead of b18 here Ten: White lives easy *and* black is left with bad aji ] ;B[ff] ;W[cj]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: I thought I would just give up the c6 stones after I use them Ootakamoku: but w didnt want them.. Ten: Obviously :) JeffChang: Hehe so just directly let them go ^^ Ten: Those two stones are the smallest thing in the world after c10 Ootakamoku: but didnt they become valuable once I stole the corner? Ootakamoku: or useful that is Ten: More so, anyway, since after that black could possibly attack white's corner Ten: But now, compared to the upper side, that area is in general small JeffChang: They are, under the price of defunctioning your wall Ootakamoku: ok Ten: If white lives on the upper side easily, the black stones at f14, e12, d11 lose their meaning Ootakamoku: so antti, where would you response if I played l16? Ten: Well, as you want to make your point, I'll play the lower left ] (;B[cq]C[ -- chat -- Ten: C3 is big, but still... JeffChang: Yes, just wanna say this Ootakamoku: I was worried how useless c6 stones become if you play c4 JeffChang: cannot care about those 2 stones anymore JeffChang: whole board goes first JeffChang: Right, but you have to consider about the efficiency of your wall first Ten: Too bad it's b18 and not e18 Ten: If it was e18, something like black o17 would be nice balance JeffChang: those 2 stones will have to be fishing group away from your moyo Ten: Now it feels more like l16 Ten: M17, maybe? Ten: M17 feels marginally better than l16, but anyway Ootakamoku: since w committed to bottom left Ten: To build the moyo, m15 after m17 is also nice Ootakamoku: oh, ok Ten: Or possibly q14 Ten: Anyway, let's go on :) JeffChang: Ok ^^ ] ;W[cp] ;B[bp] ;W[lc] ;B[jc] ;W[oc] ;B[br]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Probably black should take the upper side instead of c3? ] ;W[pg] ;B[pe] ;W[qb] ;B[nd] ;W[nc] (;B[nf] ;W[qk] (;B[hq]C[ -- chat -- Ten: I thought the game is not so much worse though? ] ;W[go] (;B[nq]C[ -- chat -- Ten: I thought this "normal" ] (;W[or]C[ -- chat -- Ten: But this is something like l4 for sure ] (;B[qm]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Japanese is 相場, I wonder if it makes sense in Chinese JeffChang: Cos this invasion is saying 'no not fine' Ten: Right JeffChang: Ah this one I have no idea :P JeffChang: that term I mean ] ;W[pn] ;B[pm]C[ -- chat -- 48urhbfjieo3: what about black q8 instead of q7? ] ;W[om] ;B[qn]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: ya, stabilizes the bottom, weakanes left side, and I sort of will get r7 anwyays? Ootakamoku: after l4 that is Ten: Nah, I'd defend the side Ootakamoku: oh, ok Ten: 場 is probably "place" as in "abstract situation" ] ;W[ol]C[ -- chat -- JeffChang: Yeah that is understandable Ten: 相 as mutual Ten: So it's "what both sides should expect" Ten: As a result JeffChang: aha get it ^^ Ten: Is there a Chinese word for that? JeffChang: 先相先 JeffChang: No, but I got the meaning from here ^^ Ootakamoku: I feel like I tried too much in this fight.. Ten: Ok :) ] ;B[po] ;W[oo] ;B[on] ;W[nn] ;B[qp] ;W[oq]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Interesting, 先相先 is a handicap system in Japanese go... zife: Ten: 相場 = market price Ten: zife, I don't buy that Fairbairn translation JeffChang: Right zife: it's not a fairbairn translation zife: that's the literal meaning Ten: Pretty sure it is? Ten: Huh, okay zife: 1)市場で競争売買によって決まる商品の値段・価格。 JeffChang: Q8 is a wrong shape. 48urhbfjieo3: ok thank you Ten: Zife, is it Fairbairn who first tried to use it in go? JeffChang: Sorry I can only tell this much Ten: I didn't see anybody but him use it JeffChang: so in that kind of situation, Q8 is not a move that should be considered JeffChang: Here ] (;B[pk] ;W[pl] ;B[ql] ;W[qj] ;B[ok] ;W[qq]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Here JeffChang: ko Ten: R5 ] (;B[pn]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: I thought this way I would live and maintain p9 stones use JeffChang: and this connect is unacceptable... Ootakamoku: didnt pan outy so well JeffChang: Ok Ootakamoku: since I just cant fight the ko JeffChang: well my thought was to fight the ko, to me you have no choice Ootakamoku: but no threat big enough on the board JeffChang: left side is pretty big Ten: Big enough for what? Ootakamoku: big enough to compensate for dying on right side JeffChang: since after that w has 2 weak groups at left and bottom left Ten: If you play the right-side situation out as normal, oyu take a loss anyway Ten: What you're supposed to count is, if that "loss" is bigger or smaller than the difference in the ko exchange Ten: Pretty sure the ko exchange is better for black in this game JeffChang: Ok that is a good point ^^ Ootakamoku: hmm Ootakamoku: but h3 will lost its value, and q9 stones will lose value, if I fight the ko and lose, not just about losing the group Ootakamoku: lots of wasted moves too JeffChang: so as w left side E8 or so, if you count it this way :P Ten: Is that losing of value more than 35 points? Ootakamoku: and I felt like its inevitable I lose the ko if I fight it, I might regret setting the situation up, but.. once Im here really fgight the ko I lose? Ten: More than 35, actually, since then white's remaining stones on left are weak Ootakamoku: hmm Ootakamoku: ten, I would think its in the same ballpark Ten: What's that mean? Ootakamoku: similar in size Ten: Then you should do it, right? Ootakamoku: hmm Ten: "Local loss" vs. "even exchange" JeffChang: that is exactly the reason you have to do it :P Ootakamoku: hmm, even tho it makes my last few moves look bad? Ten: Sure, all you care about is if the exchange is fair or not Ten: White c13 etc. will look bad too Ootakamoku: ok Ootakamoku: I naivly thought w would save r10 stones JeffChang: think for both sides efficiency JeffChang: you can accept it a lot easier Ten: I should have saved r10 :) Ootakamoku: which would allow me to live on the right side, and get sente to move to bottom Ten: In the game I played s9 too early on impulse Ten: And then the flow got worse Ten: Ok, go forward? JeffChang: sure ] ;W[mo] ;B[rp] ;W[rq]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: t6 marginally better? Ten: Pretty sure black o9 is a good exchange ] (;B[ro] ;W[nk] ;B[pi]C[ -- chat -- JeffChang: ok ^^ JeffChang: sure JeffChang: so in the game you thought w could do like p11 right? Ten: Yeah JeffChang: hehe get it ^^ ] (;W[rk]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: I presume it doesnt work Ten: I attach s12 and you die all Ootakamoku: but tried reading it in the game Ootakamoku: yup yup Ootakamoku: I lose the semeai? Ootakamoku: I sort of read it as a seki, which is no good Ten: By at least one, probably two Ootakamoku: ok Ten: Ok, one ] ;B[rl]C[ -- chat -- Ten: And sure it doesn't work ] ;W[nj] ;B[oi]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: what happens if I answr s9 with r12? ] ;W[ni]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: aargh, I made a reading mistake for r4 group l&d Ten: S9... Ootakamoku: somehow missread not alive with s9 and t8 Ten: Get o10 first Ten: Then play s12, I guess ] (;B[qh]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Go a bit forward? ] ;W[qg] ;B[rh] ;W[ng]C[ -- chat -- Ten: P12 was good, but leave it at that Ootakamoku: I regretted it as soon as I played it Ootakamoku: naively first read I can afford the cut Ootakamoku: only realizing I cant after I had already pushed Ten: P12-p13 and then turn or jump ] (;B[oh] ;W[og] (;B[nh] ;W[mh]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: since black can use o8 if white starts fighting the top Ten: Possibly yeah Ootakamoku: I guess q17 exchange is rather painful way to prevent the fight.. zife: re: 相場, you probably associate market price with fairbairn because no one else talks about the concept in the west but him Ten: Zife, yeah Ten: Maybe we'd conclude here? JeffChang: Sure Ten: Thanks JeffChang: Thanks ^^ Ten: I'll do the uploading JeffChang: Please 48urhbfjieo3: gg both thanks for the review ] (;B[rg] ;W[mf]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Oota, sure, you can "afford" it Ten: If you don't play it, white plays o12 Ootakamoku: sure sure.. but I meant if b also cuts Ootakamoku: which I couldnt do Ten: \[20:36\] Ootakamoku \[2d\]: I read I can afford the o12 n13 cut before I play s14 Ten: Oh, n13 too, I see Ten: Sorry then Ten: Ok, yeah, that's a quick game over Ten: Jeff, did you ever see the final tsumego before? JeffChang: final tsumego? JeffChang: I might, but not with this name. :P Ten: Maybe it's 官子譜 or so JeffChang: Ah, I have read a bit in this case. Ten: I'm not sure Ten: I feel I'd seen it somewhere Ten: Just couldn't tell where JeffChang: and there is a shape similar to this in the game? :P Ten: I mean, go forward ] ;B[jp]C[ -- chat -- Ten: And white n14 becomes the most perfect shape ever Ootakamoku: as in.. I die with the whole group is I try.. ] ;W[rf] ;B[re] ;W[qf] ;B[sf] ;W[qe]C[ -- chat -- Ten: After black r17 Ootakamoku: and s16 here ] ;B[rc]C[ -- chat -- Ten: This black shape is still fine Ten: But r17 is something like a losing move JeffChang: Yes Ten: So I just wondered if the final white top right corner shape is something famous or not ] ;W[pd] (;B[qc]C[ -- chat -- JeffChang: aha I see Ootakamoku: assuming I live with the b group, how far behind am I? Ootakamoku: 10 points? ] ;W[oj]C[ -- chat -- Ten: So that's q17 instead of r17 ] ;B[pj] ;W[sg] ;B[se] ;W[qi] ;B[ph] ;W[ri] ;B[sh] ;W[rb] ;B[pc] ;W[od] ;B[pb] ;W[si] ;B[sg] ;W[sc] ;B[rd] ;W[ob]C[Ok get it ^^ -- chat -- Ten: Yeah, like that Ten: Now it's almost like KGS Ootakamoku: below where our text appears Ten: It should be right below the box where you see text now JeffChang: ah ok Ten: Ok :) JeffChang: So I type here JeffChang: Get it :D Ten: Well, either is fine, but I prefer this way Ten: Feels more like talking then ] )(;B[pc] ;W[od]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: I guess that w thickness will become more points, so prboably further behind than 10 even if I live Ootakamoku: I tried to play as "rational and reasonable" in this game as I could Ootakamoku: k4 was maintaining balance Ootakamoku: if I answer topright I feel like I lose instantly territory balance and no way to catch up Ootakamoku: ya ] (;B[qc] )(;B[rb] ;W[qc] ;B[rd] ;W[pb] ;B[ra]C[ -- chat -- Ten: This, right?. From move 86: Q17 P16 S18 R17 S16 Q18 S19 JeffChang: true ^^ JeffChang: but you have to live first :P Ten: Territory is pretty even Ten: Black just a bit ahead Ten: So it's about that white wall and that black weak group JeffChang: so I doubt about b K4 JeffChang: probably adding a move on top right is the must Ten: Top right is normal, yeah JeffChang: balance is off already... Ten: White's getting this sente capture is big Ten: It feels like white can even pull h17 off now JeffChang: Alright ^^ JeffChang: Actually balance is off at the moment when you refused the ko Ten: Yeah, that's the key moment for sure JeffChang: before that it was still a game ] )))(;B[mg] (;W[mf] ;B[lg] ;W[ne] ;B[rf]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: somethign silly like this. From move 76: N13 N14 M13 O15 S14 Ootakamoku: it was sort of cool, too bad I was at the wrong end of the stick ] )(;W[pj] ;B[rg]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: maybe black could play like this?. From move 76: N13 Q10 S13 Ootakamoku: because white cant fight n13, or o8 is actiated which buys me 1 magic lib unless I missread. ] ;W[oj] ;B[pc]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: like this.. From move 76: N13 Q10 S13 P10 Q17 Ootakamoku: sure Ootakamoku: thank you for the game & review. ] ))(;B[nm] ;W[nl] ;B[mg] (;W[pj] ;B[rg]C[ -- chat -- JeffChang: Might be better than the game, yes Ten: I guess I'm okay with the exchange Ten: Should be white sente ] ;W[oj]C[ -- chat -- JeffChang: I think it is b :P Ten: Oh, r14 is no problem? ] ;B[jp] ;W[qf]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: skip o7 ecchange Ootakamoku: its nice if top works out Ootakamoku: but its usefull if white intends to fight the top ] (;B[re]C[ -- chat -- Ten: This is out, right? Ten: S14, r15, start cutting Ootakamoku: black could renegitate again with q17? ] ;W[rf] ;B[sf] ;W[qe]C[ -- chat -- JeffChang: nvm Ootakamoku: renegotiate* Ten: Oh, q16 is fine? Ten: Interesting ] (;B[of] )(;B[pd]C[ -- chat -- Ten: No it's not Ten: Nevermind JeffChang: hehe ok :D Ten: So s14 instead of s15, take the liberty ] ))(;B[rf]C[ -- chat -- Ten: But that doesn't work either Ootakamoku: but black gets r18 now? Ten: Oh wait, does it? Ten: THis is fine huh Ootakamoku: it is? Ten: This white is dead, yeah Ten: If black can take sente to play k4, I'm inclined to say "no" and fight instead of just taking the exchange Ten: Black doesn't play s15 but q16 ] ;W[qe] (;B[re] ;W[mf] ;B[lg] ;W[ne]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: what now?. From move 76: O7 O8 N13 Q10 S13 P10 K4 R14 S14 R15 S15 N14 M13 O15 ] )(;B[pd]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Yeah, that Ten: Just look at what Jeff's doing :) JeffChang: ^^ Ootakamoku: duh Ootakamoku: cool one JeffChang: aha :D ] )(;B[rd] ;W[mf] ;B[lg] ;W[ne]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: still, not sure what to do about this, looks like ko... From move 76: O7 O8 N13 Q10 S13 P10 K4 R14 S14 R15 S16 N14 M13 O15 Ootakamoku: oh.. Ootakamoku: q16.. ] )))(;W[mf] ;B[lg] ;W[oe]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Fight's on. From move 76: O7 O8 N13 N14 M13 P15 Ten: That was my original idea, anyway, if black cuts Ten: Fine, I'll give up one stone anytime anyway ] )))(;B[rf]C[ -- chat -- JeffChang: right Ootakamoku: I read I can afford the o12 n13 cut before I play s14 Ootakamoku: so that I can make use of o8 later Ten: One-move difference basically ] ))(;B[rf]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: losing the liberty hurt ] ))(;B[og]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Yeah, it's more annoying if black resists here :) ] ;W[qh]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: but w lives trivially? JeffChang: yeah w should still be fine Ootakamoku: so improvement for b over earlier w life Ten: Actually, the game had a fine sequence too ] ;B[oh] ;W[rf]C[ -- chat -- Ten: This kind of shape. From move 68: P13 R12 P12 S14 ] ))(;W[nj] ;B[oi] ;W[rh]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Like this. From move 63: O10 P11 S12 ] ;B[ni] ;W[qf]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Comfortable white life?. From move 63: O10 P11 S12 O11 R14 ] ))(;B[rk]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: oh, nvm, its not Ten: And s9 for the right side of course JeffChang: sure JeffChang: ah that first ] )(;B[nk] ;W[ml] ;B[rk] ;W[rj] ;B[sl]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Yeah, it's supposed to look like this Ootakamoku: uhoh. Ten: Then o13 etc ] ;W[ng] ))(;B[qo]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: oh.. JeffChang: Aha ok ^^ Ootakamoku: andI use q11 as a local threat for ko? Ootakamoku: if w plays s3.. Ten: I'll play hardest Ten: s4 ] ;W[rp]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: but doesnt this give me more threats for ko? Ten: Well, in a sense Ten: But then you also pay in terms of o5 Ootakamoku: hmm JeffChang: So he will finish the ko and let you get the corner Ten: I want you to play those few moves on the outside, then make some ponnuki shape Ten: Yes Ootakamoku: right.. Ten: But anyway, black seems like fighting this way, too JeffChang: so my threat was at B12 in any case :P Ten: Yeah, I'll give that group up I think JeffChang: Right Ten: Unless you play b12 now JeffChang: then you are right JeffChang: this exchange is better Ten: If you exchange b12-c12, then we have a discussion Ootakamoku: lol, I did consider b12, but I was worried that the aji is scary even after that Ootakamoku: for the ko that is Ootakamoku: wasnt sure I get 100% clean kill with b12 threat JeffChang: yeah my idea was B12 to make it bigger, then ko :P Ten: There's that kind of issue too, yeah Ten: Jeff, ah, yeah :) JeffChang: cos there are 2 threats, right? ^^ Ten: In that case, yeah Ten: Wait, just one Ten: I'll only answer c11 JeffChang: at b10? Ten: Yeah JeffChang: and you will ignore b C14 Ten: Right JeffChang: well then it has to be that way ^^ Ten: I'll be happy to, with black b18 :) Ten: If black had e18, then I'd think about it JeffChang: yeah ok :D JeffChang: back there JeffChang: but anyway, this 1 and 2 is good exchange in any case ^^ Ten: Yeah ] ))(;B[qq]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: just take corner.. Ootakamoku: ya Ten: Capture, then JeffChang: I actually don't like it Ootakamoku: now I can easierly fight the q9 later JeffChang: but looks like the only way ] ;W[pn] ;B[qo] ;W[kq]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Jeff, I saw something better in the game, we'll see in a bit Ten: Yeah, like this Ten: Then try something on the lower side JeffChang: I don't like this b Ten: Ok, back to game Ten: Q9 etc JeffChang: cos the direction is against the battle Ten: I saw something more like fighting ] ))(;B[kp]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: hmm, right ] ;W[pn] ))(;W[pn] ;B[kp] ;W[or]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Yeah, that I'd be fine with Ten: I thought black'd take the corner Ootakamoku: but p2 looks a bit slow? Ootakamoku: in this tewari.. Ten: I don't see anything bigger on the board? JeffChang: Ah I mean it is like this order ^^ Ten: Jeff, yeah, I know Ten: As far as I see, 3 is the biggest area on this board? Ootakamoku: ya, sure JeffChang: Yeah sure Ootakamoku: just didnt look all over, somehow assumed its too early, but ya, nothing left JeffChang: just very fine to b, I am sayiing Ten: But if I play this order, black won't play 2 but take the corner Ootakamoku: so biggest yose Ten: Yeah, black is fine too of course ] ))(;B[jp]C[ -- chat -- Ten: It was hard for white to do anything about h3 Ten: Ah, this I play m3 without thinking again Ootakamoku: I didnt want to let white have l3.. Ootakamoku: er.. m3 JeffChang: That is not the topic right? :P JeffChang: w group is the topic Ten: Hmm Ootakamoku: but how can I profit from the w group? Ten: I don't feel like black can do much about it, either, yeah JeffChang: Alright ] ))(;B[ip]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: 2 space high if anything? JeffChang: This is more like attacking right? JeffChang: there isn't base on the 3rd line anyway Ten: I wonder how big a difference there is Ten: Now it's white f6 ] ;W[fn] ;B[em]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Oh, thne pincer Ten: *then ] ;W[kq] ;B[go]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Connect ] ;W[fo] ;B[im]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Ok, kind of an attack JeffChang: ^^ JeffChang: in theory high is to attack, low is not :P Ten: I feel like saying "no" with l5, but maybe it's scary JeffChang: aha ok :D ] ))(;B[md]C[ -- chat -- JeffChang: I cannot bare that shape.. Ten: Hehe Ten: White connect alright ] ;W[mc]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Then feels like pincer? ] (;B[ng]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Oh, that way ] )(;B[pj] ;W[ng]C[ -- chat -- Ten: I thought one space low Ootakamoku: how about r11? Ten: Yeah, that ] )(;B[qi]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Then kosumi and keima to q9 or so ] ;W[oh] ;B[pk]C[ -- chat -- Ten: ...Is what I thought, anyway JeffChang: Ok, so for now the shape is not suffering, yet Ootakamoku: sofar all 4 things you have pointed out, are moves I have thought about, but somehow didnt play :( Ten: Cap is kind of good shape as well, but then white gets the extension and it kind of feels like black isn't doing anything Ten: I want to get r11 no matter what as black JeffChang: Ok ^^ ] )))(;B[kd]C[ -- chat -- Ten: That's the next biggest after the upper side Ten: Descent, feels like ] ;W[cp]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Then black f7 or so Ten: And then life goes on Ootakamoku: okies ] )(;B[lc]C[ -- chat -- Ootakamoku: even tho b gets next move to build moyo? ] ))(;B[eb]C[ -- chat -- JeffChang: Of course ^^ Ootakamoku: right JeffChang: since b cannot attack anyway ] ))(;B[cd]C[ -- chat -- Ten: Black should play tighter here, yeah Ten: In the game white took everything JeffChang: My feeling is this kosumi Ten: Same Ten: Block, kosumi, keima ] ;W[ce]C[ -- chat -- Ten: That kind of feeling ] ;B[ed] ;W[bi]C[ -- chat -- JeffChang: Right, ] ))