(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[Finnish8d]PB[Veivi]BR[2d]DT[2016-04-17]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Veivi [2d?\]: have a nice game
Finnish8d [-\]: Ok have a nice game! ^^
Tien [-\]: Thanks
]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]C[Finnish8d [-\]: ^^
]
;B[pp]
;W[dq]
;B[do]
;W[co]
;B[dp]
;W[cp]
;B[eq]
;W[cn]
;B[dr]
;W[cq]
;B[pj]
;W[nq]
;B[kp]
;W[pn]
;B[np]
;W[qq]
(;B[qp]
;W[mp]
;B[no]
;W[pq]
(;B[mo]
;W[mq]LB[lo:A]C[Tien [-\]: I guess up to here is kind of joseki
Tien [-\]: In this result, maybe black gets sente, but later, the weakness at A will be a big discussion point
Tien [-\]: So whichever plan black picks, he must prepare for A
Tien [-\]: It's not a walk in a park either
]
(;B[fc]
;W[jd]
;B[lc]
;W[ec]
;B[fd]
;W[df]
(;B[ie]
;W[je]
;B[jf]LB[lc:A][ie:B]C[Tien [-\]: Veivi, what's the plan here?
Veivi [2d?\]: gaining stones in the center
Veivi [2d?\]: i wanted him to live somehow on the upper side
Tien [-\]: Anyway, in this scenario, it doesn't feel like A and B are working together
Tien [-\]: So something went odd for black already
Veivi [2d?\]: yes
]
(;W[if]
;B[id]
;W[ic]
;B[hc]C[Tien [-\]: Well, this escalated quickly :)
]
;W[jc]TR[ic][jc]C[kryft [2k\]: :D
Tien [-\]: I thought if white has to connect this way on the upper side, black should be playable too
Tien [-\]: White doesn't seem to be gaining so much
Tien [-\]: Oh, right
]
;B[ig]
;W[hf]
;B[ge]
;W[hg]
;B[jg]C[Veivi [2d?\]: the coffee is starting to kick in
]
;W[ld]
;B[mc]
;W[md]
;B[nd]
;W[lf]
;B[fg]
;W[hi]
;B[ji]
;W[ne]
;B[od]
;W[fi]
;B[eh]
;W[dj]
(;B[di]
;W[cj]
;B[ci]LB[ch:A]C[Tien [-\]: This was better for black than just playing A?
Finnish8d [-\]: he is aiming at G12 I guess
Tien [-\]: Is there something different here for that?
Veivi [2d?\]: this also avoided issues with white D13 later
Veivi [2d?\]: in relation to F14
Tien [-\]: But technically f14 exists anyway?
]
;W[fh]C[Tien [-\]: Hmm, though in the game white fixed
]
;B[eg]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I just want to settle quickly to get N11
Finnish8d [-\]: I wonder if b can tenuki and get N11
Finnish8d [-\]: that is my major concern
]
(;W[cf]
;B[bj]
;W[ei]
;B[bh]C[Tien [-\]: I actually thought black got away pretty well here
Tien [-\]: The earlier situation felt bad for black, but now I think this is even?
Finnish8d [-\]: so what did I do wrong? :P
Tien [-\]: Hmm, that's weird
Tien [-\]: So d11 is actually not so bad then, if this happens
]
(;W[mi]
;B[jk]C[Tien [-\]: Hmm, still has to be that kind of thing huh
]
;W[ok]LB[fi:B][ji:C][lo:A][dq:D][eq:E]TR[ak][bk][ck][dk][ek][fk][fl][am][bm][cm][dm][em][fm]C[Tien [-\]: From here on, A is the main talk
Tien [-\]: Unless black can get a severe attack going on, this is actually probably the smallest region on the board
Tien [-\]: Normally speaking, neither player can make territory here
Tien [-\]: So if black plan had a problem, that's the culprit
Veivi [2d?\]: i was mostly trying to cut in sente in the area
Finnish8d [-\]: hmm so I should have done M5 earlier then, P10 is slow from this sense
Tien [-\]: So for the attack scenario, you're trying to attack B, but C is weak
Tien [-\]: And you're trying to attack D, but E is thin
Tien [-\]: That's two unrealistic points in my opinion
Tien [-\]: And yet the game worked out really smoothly
]
(;B[ck]LB[ok:C][cl:B][lo:A]C[Tien [-\]: Black went for the aggressive way in the game, which might be fine in itself
Tien [-\]: But black always has to make sure A won't crumble like a house of cards
Tien [-\]: (Sorry, I just had to say that)
Veivi [2d?\]: and review
Finnish8d [-\]: thanks ^^
Tien [-\]: Veivi might want to watch for these kinds of spots in following games
Tien [-\]: C9 is a cut, alright, but as far as the area of the board goes it's small
Tien [-\]: White B would be a move which defends and does something else
Tien [-\]: Uh
Tien [-\]: *Nothing else
Veivi [2d?\]: it's supposed to indirectly help a bit
Tien [-\]: So white is not particularly happy to play B
Veivi [2d?\]: but maybe i often try to defend indirectly too much
Tien [-\]: With the same thinking, this area shouldn't be huge for black either
Veivi [2d?\]: should just fix what i want to fix :)
Tien [-\]: That's usually easier, yes
Tien [-\]: Also, with C being a shoulder hit, usually a direct answer to it will be huge
Tien [-\]: Especially since it's a shoulder hit on the fifth line
Tien [-\]: But okay, let's finish here
Veivi [2d?\]: "i have a problem, so i will create a problem for the opponent and then we'll brawl"
Veivi [2d?\]: yeah
Finnish8d [-\]: ok
Tien [-\]: That works if the opponent has no idea on where is big and where is small :)
Tien [-\]: Me, I'll rather figure out the small and big areas myself and play easy-to-understand after that
]
;W[dk]
;B[dl]C[Pempu [2d?\]: Too much violence
]
;W[fk]C[Veivi [2d?\]: i am acting in self defence
Finnish8d [-\]: ^^
]
;B[el]LB[jk:B][lo:A][no:C]C[Tien [-\]: So to say, it's vital black keeps sente
Namii [6d\]: surprising white lower left died just like that
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah nothing there left 
Tien [-\]: At this point, black is saying, "ok, A is thin, but white is also busy on the left side, so let's fight"
Tien [-\]: Realistically, if black tries to kill white lower left, then either black B or C should die
Tien [-\]: Black just has to make sure it dies in a controlled way, and the other group survives well
Tien [-\]: Expecting white to die and B and C to live is ridiculous
Tien [-\]: As far as I see, B is the smallest of the four groups fighting
Tien [-\]: So in the game, I thought black got a fine result if he just accepted it
]
;W[cl]
;B[bk]C[Tien [-\]: E8 says you have hidden intentions
Tien [-\]: Or otherwise, that your "self defense" means "annihilate everything of the opponent that moves"
Veivi [2d?\]: as people from the one letter island say, O is the best D
]
;W[hk]LB[ep:A]C[Tien [-\]: You did it, okay
Veivi [2d?\]: turned out some of the moves were a little bit less sente than i thought
Tien [-\]: Next plan?
Tien [-\]: The A cut is still there, yes
Tien [-\]: The original black shape is thin, so the attack won't work out that quickly
]
;B[fp]
;W[oj]C[Tien [-\]: So, for the game sequence
Tien [-\]: There's one more odd thing in the corner
Finnish8d [-\]: probably this is slow
Tien [-\]: Normally with this move, white should win
Tien [-\]: I really want this if possible
Tien [-\]: And the lower left should not die so easily either
Tien [-\]: So I thought this should be fine
]
;B[cr]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Ok
Finnish8d [-\]: i cannot see a simple way here ^^
Tien [-\]: Ko is simple :D
Finnish8d [-\]: how?
]
(;W[bl]
;B[bq]
;W[bp]
;B[br]C[Finnish8d [-\]: D7 is more reliable
]
(;W[dn]
;B[fm]C[Tien [-\]: "Well, this escalated quickly" seems like an understatement now
]
;W[im]
;B[gn]TR[fm][dn][gn]C[Tien [-\]: Mochikomi for these
Tien [-\]: And black G6 became the killer
Tien [-\]: That's, what, minus ten points?
Finnish8d [-\]: that is not expected, G6
Tien [-\]: Ah, I see
Tien [-\]: That was good technique by black, yeah
]
;W[kl]C[Tien [-\]: Logically speaking
]
(;B[hl]LB[lo:A]C[Tien [-\]: Well, after this, black denied the exchange
Tien [-\]: Which made things busy with A still existing there
]
;W[fl]
;B[gk]C[Veivi [2d?\]: like indirectly
]
;W[em]
;B[gl]
;W[fj]
;B[jl]
;W[lo]
;B[lp]
;W[ko]
;B[jp]
;W[jm]
(;B[lr]LB[kr:A]C[Tien [-\]: Also, m2 is small, right?
Tien [-\]: And m2 is quite definitely among the smallest spots on the board
Tien [-\]: Prevents the white endgame of A?
Veivi [2d?\]: it was supposed to gain some leverage for the other group
Veivi [2d?\]: but probably just a bad idea
]
(;W[rn]C[Veivi [2d?\]: definitely
]
;B[rq]
;W[rr]
;B[ro]
;W[sq]
;B[sp]
;W[rp]
;B[bm]
;W[cm]
;B[rq]
;W[sr]
;B[om]
;W[il]
;B[hj]
;W[ik]
;B[ij]
;W[gj]
;B[hn]
;W[gg]
;B[ee]
;W[pm]
;B[pl]C[Tien [-\]: Ok, does Jeff have something left?
Finnish8d [-\]: nope ^^
Tien [-\]: 2 hours on the spot :D
Finnish8d [-\]: fun game : )
Veivi [2d?\]: hehe
Veivi [2d?\]: thanks for the game
]
;W[ql]
;B[ol]
;W[pk]
;B[qk]
;W[qj]
;B[cc]
;W[mm]
;B[eb]
;W[rk]C[Tien [-\]: I guess we'd switch for review at around here?
Finnish8d [-\]: :D
Veivi [2d?\]: sure thing
Finnish8d [-\]: ok please
])
(;W[qm]LB[qm:B][lr:A]C[Tien [-\]: Well, since the corner is in no danger, this is just a good exchange for white in my eyes
]))
(;B[mm]C[Veivi [2d?\]: i was trying to fix the A cut, but did it in a very clumsy way
]))
(;B[kn]C[Tien [-\]: This should be the place where black defends
Tien [-\]: White has to use one more move, right?
Tien [-\]: Did you realise this is sente?
Veivi [2d?\]: i thought almost everything is sente
Veivi [2d?\]: but this would also be solid :P
Tien [-\]: ...Then you shouldn't need anything more :D
Tien [-\]: Right, "solid and sente"
]
;W[jl]C[Tien [-\]: Say, here
Finnish8d [-\]: sure
]
;B[ql]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I think w wins this way right? 
Tien [-\]: And then "life goes on"
Finnish8d [-\]: Ah ok :P
Tien [-\]: White has about 60 points?
Finnish8d [-\]: Ah I didn't count
Tien [-\]: How big is lower left?
Tien [-\]: I count 45 as secure
Finnish8d [-\]: just in general centre and bottom left is a trade, but w got 2 in a row on the right
Tien [-\]: Nothing around g3
Tien [-\]: Black got sente, on the other hand
YoungPro [-\]: isn't it even result? 
Tien [-\]: As far as the territory balance goes, black actually still seems like he has a shot
Finnish8d [-\]: Ok ^^
Tien [-\]: I mean, anyway, this should be what black is going for, right?
Tien [-\]: So that would be this scenario
Finnish8d [-\]: Ok make sense
Veivi [2d?\]: seems reasonable
Namii [6d\]: there is likely some yose aji in upper left still
Tien [-\]: If there is some reason this result is not good for black, then the problem is in the original plan
Namii [6d\]: e.g. B15
Tien [-\]: Yeah, that corner is not more than 10 points for white
]))
(;W[dm]
;B[fm]C[Finnish8d [-\]: then lives right?
Finnish8d [-\]: oh still the same way?
Tien [-\]: Same thing, seems to me
Finnish8d [-\]: ah nvm
]
;W[bn]))
(;W[br]
;B[bs]
(;W[ar]C[Tien [-\]: How's this one?
Finnish8d [-\]: ok so escaping is easier?
Finnish8d [-\]: b will B7 still right?
]
;B[bm]
(;W[cm]
;B[bl]C[Veivi [2d?\]: isn't this very dangerous for w
Tien [-\]: This felt very thin for me, but it's fine huh
Finnish8d [-\]: I actually thought my D6 in the game was wrong
Tien [-\]: This kind of shape can hold huh
]
;W[fo]C[Tien [-\]: Don't want to believe :D
Finnish8d [-\]: :D
Finnish8d [-\]: b still kosumi
]
;B[fm]
;W[en]C[Finnish8d [-\]: jump forward
Tien [-\]: Upper group is in danger?
]
;B[hm]
;W[gp]LB[oj:A]C[Tien [-\]: Lower one lived with this
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
Finnish8d [-\]: question is centre
Finnish8d [-\]: I guess in the game I can also get out
Tien [-\]: White got A, and erased lower side
Finnish8d [-\]: but centre is the concern
Tien [-\]: So if the centre just lives, I'll accept this for white
Finnish8d [-\]: if it lives sure
Tien [-\]: Not the simplest scenario, maybe
])
(;W[bn]C[Finnish8d [-\]: better than this way
]
(;B[bp]
;W[ap]
;B[bq]
;W[an]
;B[bo]C[Finnish8d [-\]: why?
Finnish8d [-\]: hane 1st line right? :P
])
(;B[an]
;W[ao]
;B[bp]C[Finnish8d [-\]: so B8 is not a possibility for w
Tien [-\]: Same way, if d7 is sente it's a possibility
Tien [-\]: But it's a bit far, huh
Tien [-\]: One more second...
])))
(;W[aq]C[Finnish8d [-\]: ah ok :P
]))
(;W[lo]LB[dn:B][br:A]C[Tien [-\]: So actually maybe white can just tenuki again
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah get it
Tien [-\]: Black has to use A to kill, and B aji still exists
Tien [-\]: Yeah, this seems simple
Finnish8d [-\]: yes
Tien [-\]: In the game, white died in a big way
]))
(;B[oj]C[Tien [-\]: Me, I'll cut here without thinking
Veivi [2d?\]: i thought i could fix e in sente through the sente cut, but it was not to be
Tien [-\]: Jeff, N9?
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah that is expected 
Finnish8d [-\]: sure
]
;W[mk]C[Tien [-\]: So this kind of fighting game then, okay
]
;B[nk]C[Finnish8d [-\]: atari tiger
]
;W[nl]
;B[nj]
;W[mm]C[Tien [-\]: This one?
Tien [-\]: The other?
Finnish8d [-\]: yes
Finnish8d [-\]: this one
]
;B[mj]C[Finnish8d [-\]: for hane
Tien [-\]: And hane right way?
Finnish8d [-\]: well no choice then
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
]
;W[lo]C[Tien [-\]: Hmm, that seems fishy
]
;B[qn]
;W[qm]
;B[pm]C[Tien [-\]: How's this go?
Finnish8d [-\]: you can live
Finnish8d [-\]: so Q8
]
;W[pl]
;B[om]C[Finnish8d [-\]: p6
]
;W[on]
;B[rm]
;W[ql]
;B[ro]LB[gb:B][me:A][mj:C]C[Tien [-\]: Well, this kind of a fight I suppose
Tien [-\]: White tries an attack on the lower side, and black aims for m6
Tien [-\]: Top right mostly becomes black territory
Finnish8d [-\]: yes M6 is annnoying
Tien [-\]: And the upper-side white is just a bit thin too
Tien [-\]: Something like black A can be surprisingly effective, maybe
Tien [-\]: Given that upper left has aji too
Tien [-\]: B may have an effect on the corner?
Tien [-\]: That's actually something to ask very quickly here
Tien [-\]: It's a long game, but I feel black is thick in this scenario
Tien [-\]: C fixes a lot of problems
]))
(;W[lo]C[Tien [-\]: Is there time to start it now?
Finnish8d [-\]: isn't N11 important for both groups?
Tien [-\]: You mean black will play it now?
Finnish8d [-\]: I will if I were b
]
;B[mi]C[Tien [-\]: Ah, okay
]
;W[ln]C[Tien [-\]: Jump o7?
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah ok
]
;B[nm]C[Tien [-\]: Hmm, yeah, the white group is kind of heavy
Tien [-\]: That's annoying
]
;W[of]C[Tien [-\]: Defend and black j4 is a good spot too
]))
(;W[ee]C[Tien [-\]: I wanted to make the peep
Finnish8d [-\]: ok b will answer G14
]
;B[gf]
;W[gg]C[Finnish8d [-\]: E16 he can fix it in sente?
]
;B[ed]C[Veivi [2d?\]: was my main sequence
]
(;W[dc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I plan to do this but E16 is annoying
Veivi [2d?\]: i thought this might happen
Veivi [2d?\]: like this
])
(;W[ff]
;B[ef]
;W[de]
;B[fe]
;W[eb]C[Tien [-\]: Hmm, I see
]))
(;W[ei]C[Tien [-\]: If here?
]
;B[cg]
;W[cf]
;B[dg]C[Finnish8d [-\]: yeah then tenuki
Veivi [2d?\]: i would not play D13
Tien [-\]: Now corner is scary
]))
(;B[ch]LB[de:C][ee:B][di:A]C[Tien [-\]: How does this go
Finnish8d [-\]: I will just pillar C14
Tien [-\]: If possible, black really doesn't want to force white in a stronger shape with A
Finnish8d [-\]: to me F14 cannot do the work?
Tien [-\]: I think Veivi will be happy if white just plays c14 here
Tien [-\]: So, Veivi, how does white play?
Tien [-\]: F14, not immediately, no
Veivi [2d?\]: I dont't know :)
Veivi [2d?\]: it's true that if C14, i'm happy
Tien [-\]: Yes
Veivi [2d?\]: then i rather pick this
Tien [-\]: Right
Finnish8d [-\]: hehe ok
Finnish8d [-\]: I will even if you say so :P
Tien [-\]: As for the shape, B-C is always kind of black sente
Tien [-\]: So unless white has some really sharp order of moves, black is fine
Tien [-\]: But I can't see which order prevents B-C
Tien [-\]: With B-C in place, black is already connected anyway
]))
(;W[ld]C[Tien [-\]: So if I attach here?
Finnish8d [-\]: that is negotiatable if in a more diplomatic way. :P
Veivi [2d?\]: N17
]
;B[mc]
;W[kf]C[Veivi [2d?\]: well, it was not me who cut first 
Tien [-\]: This should be the first impression though :D
Finnish8d [-\]: Ah...  I thought I had no choice. :P
]
(;B[if]
;W[kg]C[Tien [-\]: If this happens, I have no idea what black is doing
])
(;B[jg]C[Tien [-\]: So I guess black has to keep extending
]
(;W[md]
;B[nd]
;W[ne]
;B[od]
;W[kg])
(;W[kg]C[Tien [-\]: Better not to exchange it, probably
]
(;B[kh]C[Finnish8d [-\]: :D
]
;W[if]C[Finnish8d [-\]: so sooner or later it will happen. ^^
Tien [-\]: Seems pretty uncontrollable for black though
Tien [-\]: White can run pretty far for liberties
]
;B[jh]
;W[hf]C[Tien [-\]: So this probably can't end well for black
])
(;B[jh]LB[lo:A]TR[kh][ki]C[Tien [-\]: Hmm, well, maybe black can get something out of this too
Tien [-\]: Even here, the main discussion is actually A
Tien [-\]: Whether white will find time to cut or not
Tien [-\]: Or whether black can fix it on a large scale
Tien [-\]: If white can get two stones at triangles, A is really severe
Tien [-\]: If black can get a turn at l12, then A is mostly fixed
Tien [-\]: That kind of thinking
])))))
(;B[ke]LB[lo:A]C[Tien [-\]: How about pressing on this side?
Veivi [2d?\]: hehe
Veivi [2d?\]: this is kind of what i wanted
Veivi [2d?\]: no idea why i didn't
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah that is more like b plan at the start ^^
Tien [-\]: Indeed
Tien [-\]: This is more like fixing A too
]
;W[je]
(;B[jf]C[Tien [-\]: I kind of want to hane here :D
]
;W[if]
;B[kf]LB[ig:A]C[Tien [-\]: Question is if white can extend to A now
Finnish8d [-\]: has to nobi
]
;W[ig]
;B[ie]C[Tien [-\]: Sacrifice two?
Finnish8d [-\]: let it go then. :P
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah
])
(;B[kf]LB[kc:A]C[Tien [-\]: Ok, keep it simple
Tien [-\]: Now question is white can get A
Tien [-\]: I don't think he can
Tien [-\]: Black will turn
Finnish8d [-\]: I will just keima
]
(;W[kc]
;B[jf])
(;W[ig]
;B[ji]LB[cc:A]TR[mo][no][kp][np][pp][qp]C[Tien [-\]: I have no idea how to control this kind of game :D
Tien [-\]: Black should try to find a good timing to ask A
Finnish8d [-\]: it is fun as w ^^
Tien [-\]: I actually hate that black corner shape
Tien [-\]: If white plays first, black crumbles
Tien [-\]: But even if black plays once, it's still not efficient
]))))
(;W[lo]C[Tien [-\]: So this is not just black saying, "fine, white can cut, I can fight"
Tien [-\]: Black has to make sure *how* he fights
Tien [-\]: Or else he should pick a safer way of play
]
;B[lp]
(;W[ko])
(;W[ln]LB[nm:A][jo:B][gq:C]TR[do][dp][eq][dr]C[Tien [-\]: White can pick from among A-C next
Tien [-\]: The four stones on the lower left, either, are not clearly "helping" in this
Tien [-\]: They might become dead weight
]
;B[nm]
(;W[gq]C[Tien [-\]: Me, personally I'm really scared of something like this
Finnish8d [-\]: ah you mean I'd do this right away?
Tien [-\]: Well, it's an option
Tien [-\]: I have no idea how to do as black
Finnish8d [-\]: Ok ^^
Tien [-\]: Probably something is possible, but...
])
(;W[hp]C[Tien [-\]: Even like this
Finnish8d [-\]: give bottom left I guess
]
;B[jo]
;W[fo]C[Tien [-\]: This seems really nasty too
]
;W[ll]LB[ok:A]C[Tien [-\]: Given the chance, this jump is kind of sente against the right too
Tien [-\]: Around A next seems painful to black
]))))
(;B[oq]C[Tien [-\]: I don't know what is the absolute strongest way of play, but I'd prefer to wedge here
]
;W[or]
;B[op]
;W[mr]
;B[mo]C[Tien [-\]: Take gote, but get 100% safe shape
Tien [-\]: This way, the game will remain more controllable for black
]))
(;B[oq]
;W[qp]
;B[fp]LB[mq:A]C[Tien [-\]: Maybe before that, I'd prefer this way though
Finnish8d [-\]: Ah I see
Finnish8d [-\]: isn't this way, Q10 is kinda dull?
Finnish8d [-\]: cos this is what I want in the game. :P
Tien [-\]: Possibly, but A is also hard for white to escape in this game
Tien [-\]: Black will resist
]
(;W[mq]
;B[pr]C[Tien [-\]: So in this sense, there's use to q10 too
Finnish8d [-\]: I know, so if this happenes I will immediately do Q8
])
(;W[pl]C[Tien [-\]: Yeah, then it's fine
]
;B[fc]TR[pj][pl]C[Tien [-\]: I'm not sure if the marked exchange benefits either player?
Finnish8d [-\]: ah get it ^^
Finnish8d [-\]: yeah I am just as dull :P
Tien [-\]: White fixed the shape, but black played on the outside
Tien [-\]: Should be an even game, more or less
])))
