(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2] RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50] PW[Finnish8d]PB[Veivi]BR[2d]DT[2016-04-17]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Veivi [2d?\]: have a nice game Finnish8d [-\]: Ok have a nice game! ^^ Tien [-\]: Thanks ] ;B[pd] ;W[dd]C[Finnish8d [-\]: ^^ ] ;B[pp] ;W[dq] ;B[do] ;W[co] ;B[dp] ;W[cp] ;B[eq] ;W[cn] ;B[dr] ;W[cq] ;B[pj] ;W[nq] ;B[kp] ;W[pn] ;B[np] ;W[qq] (;B[qp] ;W[mp] ;B[no] ;W[pq] (;B[mo] ;W[mq]LB[lo:A]C[Tien [-\]: I guess up to here is kind of joseki Tien [-\]: In this result, maybe black gets sente, but later, the weakness at A will be a big discussion point Tien [-\]: So whichever plan black picks, he must prepare for A Tien [-\]: It's not a walk in a park either ] (;B[fc] ;W[jd] ;B[lc] ;W[ec] ;B[fd] ;W[df] (;B[ie] ;W[je] ;B[jf]LB[lc:A][ie:B]C[Tien [-\]: Veivi, what's the plan here? Veivi [2d?\]: gaining stones in the center Veivi [2d?\]: i wanted him to live somehow on the upper side Tien [-\]: Anyway, in this scenario, it doesn't feel like A and B are working together Tien [-\]: So something went odd for black already Veivi [2d?\]: yes ] (;W[if] ;B[id] ;W[ic] ;B[hc]C[Tien [-\]: Well, this escalated quickly :) ] ;W[jc]TR[ic][jc]C[kryft [2k\]: :D Tien [-\]: I thought if white has to connect this way on the upper side, black should be playable too Tien [-\]: White doesn't seem to be gaining so much Tien [-\]: Oh, right ] ;B[ig] ;W[hf] ;B[ge] ;W[hg] ;B[jg]C[Veivi [2d?\]: the coffee is starting to kick in ] ;W[ld] ;B[mc] ;W[md] ;B[nd] ;W[lf] ;B[fg] ;W[hi] ;B[ji] ;W[ne] ;B[od] ;W[fi] ;B[eh] ;W[dj] (;B[di] ;W[cj] ;B[ci]LB[ch:A]C[Tien [-\]: This was better for black than just playing A? Finnish8d [-\]: he is aiming at G12 I guess Tien [-\]: Is there something different here for that? Veivi [2d?\]: this also avoided issues with white D13 later Veivi [2d?\]: in relation to F14 Tien [-\]: But technically f14 exists anyway? ] ;W[fh]C[Tien [-\]: Hmm, though in the game white fixed ] ;B[eg]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I just want to settle quickly to get N11 Finnish8d [-\]: I wonder if b can tenuki and get N11 Finnish8d [-\]: that is my major concern ] (;W[cf] ;B[bj] ;W[ei] ;B[bh]C[Tien [-\]: I actually thought black got away pretty well here Tien [-\]: The earlier situation felt bad for black, but now I think this is even? Finnish8d [-\]: so what did I do wrong? :P Tien [-\]: Hmm, that's weird Tien [-\]: So d11 is actually not so bad then, if this happens ] (;W[mi] ;B[jk]C[Tien [-\]: Hmm, still has to be that kind of thing huh ] ;W[ok]LB[fi:B][ji:C][lo:A][dq:D][eq:E]TR[ak][bk][ck][dk][ek][fk][fl][am][bm][cm][dm][em][fm]C[Tien [-\]: From here on, A is the main talk Tien [-\]: Unless black can get a severe attack going on, this is actually probably the smallest region on the board Tien [-\]: Normally speaking, neither player can make territory here Tien [-\]: So if black plan had a problem, that's the culprit Veivi [2d?\]: i was mostly trying to cut in sente in the area Finnish8d [-\]: hmm so I should have done M5 earlier then, P10 is slow from this sense Tien [-\]: So for the attack scenario, you're trying to attack B, but C is weak Tien [-\]: And you're trying to attack D, but E is thin Tien [-\]: That's two unrealistic points in my opinion Tien [-\]: And yet the game worked out really smoothly ] (;B[ck]LB[ok:C][cl:B][lo:A]C[Tien [-\]: Black went for the aggressive way in the game, which might be fine in itself Tien [-\]: But black always has to make sure A won't crumble like a house of cards Tien [-\]: (Sorry, I just had to say that) Veivi [2d?\]: and review Finnish8d [-\]: thanks ^^ Tien [-\]: Veivi might want to watch for these kinds of spots in following games Tien [-\]: C9 is a cut, alright, but as far as the area of the board goes it's small Tien [-\]: White B would be a move which defends and does something else Tien [-\]: Uh Tien [-\]: *Nothing else Veivi [2d?\]: it's supposed to indirectly help a bit Tien [-\]: So white is not particularly happy to play B Veivi [2d?\]: but maybe i often try to defend indirectly too much Tien [-\]: With the same thinking, this area shouldn't be huge for black either Veivi [2d?\]: should just fix what i want to fix :) Tien [-\]: That's usually easier, yes Tien [-\]: Also, with C being a shoulder hit, usually a direct answer to it will be huge Tien [-\]: Especially since it's a shoulder hit on the fifth line Tien [-\]: But okay, let's finish here Veivi [2d?\]: "i have a problem, so i will create a problem for the opponent and then we'll brawl" Veivi [2d?\]: yeah Finnish8d [-\]: ok Tien [-\]: That works if the opponent has no idea on where is big and where is small :) Tien [-\]: Me, I'll rather figure out the small and big areas myself and play easy-to-understand after that ] ;W[dk] ;B[dl]C[Pempu [2d?\]: Too much violence ] ;W[fk]C[Veivi [2d?\]: i am acting in self defence Finnish8d [-\]: ^^ ] ;B[el]LB[jk:B][lo:A][no:C]C[Tien [-\]: So to say, it's vital black keeps sente Namii [6d\]: surprising white lower left died just like that Finnish8d [-\]: yeah nothing there left Tien [-\]: At this point, black is saying, "ok, A is thin, but white is also busy on the left side, so let's fight" Tien [-\]: Realistically, if black tries to kill white lower left, then either black B or C should die Tien [-\]: Black just has to make sure it dies in a controlled way, and the other group survives well Tien [-\]: Expecting white to die and B and C to live is ridiculous Tien [-\]: As far as I see, B is the smallest of the four groups fighting Tien [-\]: So in the game, I thought black got a fine result if he just accepted it ] ;W[cl] ;B[bk]C[Tien [-\]: E8 says you have hidden intentions Tien [-\]: Or otherwise, that your "self defense" means "annihilate everything of the opponent that moves" Veivi [2d?\]: as people from the one letter island say, O is the best D ] ;W[hk]LB[ep:A]C[Tien [-\]: You did it, okay Veivi [2d?\]: turned out some of the moves were a little bit less sente than i thought Tien [-\]: Next plan? Tien [-\]: The A cut is still there, yes Tien [-\]: The original black shape is thin, so the attack won't work out that quickly ] ;B[fp] ;W[oj]C[Tien [-\]: So, for the game sequence Tien [-\]: There's one more odd thing in the corner Finnish8d [-\]: probably this is slow Tien [-\]: Normally with this move, white should win Tien [-\]: I really want this if possible Tien [-\]: And the lower left should not die so easily either Tien [-\]: So I thought this should be fine ] ;B[cr]C[Finnish8d [-\]: Ok Finnish8d [-\]: i cannot see a simple way here ^^ Tien [-\]: Ko is simple :D Finnish8d [-\]: how? ] (;W[bl] ;B[bq] ;W[bp] ;B[br]C[Finnish8d [-\]: D7 is more reliable ] (;W[dn] ;B[fm]C[Tien [-\]: "Well, this escalated quickly" seems like an understatement now ] ;W[im] ;B[gn]TR[fm][dn][gn]C[Tien [-\]: Mochikomi for these Tien [-\]: And black G6 became the killer Tien [-\]: That's, what, minus ten points? Finnish8d [-\]: that is not expected, G6 Tien [-\]: Ah, I see Tien [-\]: That was good technique by black, yeah ] ;W[kl]C[Tien [-\]: Logically speaking ] (;B[hl]LB[lo:A]C[Tien [-\]: Well, after this, black denied the exchange Tien [-\]: Which made things busy with A still existing there ] ;W[fl] ;B[gk]C[Veivi [2d?\]: like indirectly ] ;W[em] ;B[gl] ;W[fj] ;B[jl] ;W[lo] ;B[lp] ;W[ko] ;B[jp] ;W[jm] (;B[lr]LB[kr:A]C[Tien [-\]: Also, m2 is small, right? Tien [-\]: And m2 is quite definitely among the smallest spots on the board Tien [-\]: Prevents the white endgame of A? Veivi [2d?\]: it was supposed to gain some leverage for the other group Veivi [2d?\]: but probably just a bad idea ] (;W[rn]C[Veivi [2d?\]: definitely ] ;B[rq] ;W[rr] ;B[ro] ;W[sq] ;B[sp] ;W[rp] ;B[bm] ;W[cm] ;B[rq] ;W[sr] ;B[om] ;W[il] ;B[hj] ;W[ik] ;B[ij] ;W[gj] ;B[hn] ;W[gg] ;B[ee] ;W[pm] ;B[pl]C[Tien [-\]: Ok, does Jeff have something left? Finnish8d [-\]: nope ^^ Tien [-\]: 2 hours on the spot :D Finnish8d [-\]: fun game : ) Veivi [2d?\]: hehe Veivi [2d?\]: thanks for the game ] ;W[ql] ;B[ol] ;W[pk] ;B[qk] ;W[qj] ;B[cc] ;W[mm] ;B[eb] ;W[rk]C[Tien [-\]: I guess we'd switch for review at around here? Finnish8d [-\]: :D Veivi [2d?\]: sure thing Finnish8d [-\]: ok please ]) (;W[qm]LB[qm:B][lr:A]C[Tien [-\]: Well, since the corner is in no danger, this is just a good exchange for white in my eyes ])) (;B[mm]C[Veivi [2d?\]: i was trying to fix the A cut, but did it in a very clumsy way ])) (;B[kn]C[Tien [-\]: This should be the place where black defends Tien [-\]: White has to use one more move, right? Tien [-\]: Did you realise this is sente? Veivi [2d?\]: i thought almost everything is sente Veivi [2d?\]: but this would also be solid :P Tien [-\]: ...Then you shouldn't need anything more :D Tien [-\]: Right, "solid and sente" ] ;W[jl]C[Tien [-\]: Say, here Finnish8d [-\]: sure ] ;B[ql]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I think w wins this way right? Tien [-\]: And then "life goes on" Finnish8d [-\]: Ah ok :P Tien [-\]: White has about 60 points? Finnish8d [-\]: Ah I didn't count Tien [-\]: How big is lower left? Tien [-\]: I count 45 as secure Finnish8d [-\]: just in general centre and bottom left is a trade, but w got 2 in a row on the right Tien [-\]: Nothing around g3 Tien [-\]: Black got sente, on the other hand YoungPro [-\]: isn't it even result? Tien [-\]: As far as the territory balance goes, black actually still seems like he has a shot Finnish8d [-\]: Ok ^^ Tien [-\]: I mean, anyway, this should be what black is going for, right? Tien [-\]: So that would be this scenario Finnish8d [-\]: Ok make sense Veivi [2d?\]: seems reasonable Namii [6d\]: there is likely some yose aji in upper left still Tien [-\]: If there is some reason this result is not good for black, then the problem is in the original plan Namii [6d\]: e.g. B15 Tien [-\]: Yeah, that corner is not more than 10 points for white ])) (;W[dm] ;B[fm]C[Finnish8d [-\]: then lives right? Finnish8d [-\]: oh still the same way? Tien [-\]: Same thing, seems to me Finnish8d [-\]: ah nvm ] ;W[bn])) (;W[br] ;B[bs] (;W[ar]C[Tien [-\]: How's this one? Finnish8d [-\]: ok so escaping is easier? Finnish8d [-\]: b will B7 still right? ] ;B[bm] (;W[cm] ;B[bl]C[Veivi [2d?\]: isn't this very dangerous for w Tien [-\]: This felt very thin for me, but it's fine huh Finnish8d [-\]: I actually thought my D6 in the game was wrong Tien [-\]: This kind of shape can hold huh ] ;W[fo]C[Tien [-\]: Don't want to believe :D Finnish8d [-\]: :D Finnish8d [-\]: b still kosumi ] ;B[fm] ;W[en]C[Finnish8d [-\]: jump forward Tien [-\]: Upper group is in danger? ] ;B[hm] ;W[gp]LB[oj:A]C[Tien [-\]: Lower one lived with this Finnish8d [-\]: yeah Finnish8d [-\]: question is centre Finnish8d [-\]: I guess in the game I can also get out Tien [-\]: White got A, and erased lower side Finnish8d [-\]: but centre is the concern Tien [-\]: So if the centre just lives, I'll accept this for white Finnish8d [-\]: if it lives sure Tien [-\]: Not the simplest scenario, maybe ]) (;W[bn]C[Finnish8d [-\]: better than this way ] (;B[bp] ;W[ap] ;B[bq] ;W[an] ;B[bo]C[Finnish8d [-\]: why? Finnish8d [-\]: hane 1st line right? :P ]) (;B[an] ;W[ao] ;B[bp]C[Finnish8d [-\]: so B8 is not a possibility for w Tien [-\]: Same way, if d7 is sente it's a possibility Tien [-\]: But it's a bit far, huh Tien [-\]: One more second... ]))) (;W[aq]C[Finnish8d [-\]: ah ok :P ])) (;W[lo]LB[dn:B][br:A]C[Tien [-\]: So actually maybe white can just tenuki again Finnish8d [-\]: yeah get it Tien [-\]: Black has to use A to kill, and B aji still exists Tien [-\]: Yeah, this seems simple Finnish8d [-\]: yes Tien [-\]: In the game, white died in a big way ])) (;B[oj]C[Tien [-\]: Me, I'll cut here without thinking Veivi [2d?\]: i thought i could fix e in sente through the sente cut, but it was not to be Tien [-\]: Jeff, N9? Finnish8d [-\]: yeah that is expected Finnish8d [-\]: sure ] ;W[mk]C[Tien [-\]: So this kind of fighting game then, okay ] ;B[nk]C[Finnish8d [-\]: atari tiger ] ;W[nl] ;B[nj] ;W[mm]C[Tien [-\]: This one? Tien [-\]: The other? Finnish8d [-\]: yes Finnish8d [-\]: this one ] ;B[mj]C[Finnish8d [-\]: for hane Tien [-\]: And hane right way? Finnish8d [-\]: well no choice then Finnish8d [-\]: yeah ] ;W[lo]C[Tien [-\]: Hmm, that seems fishy ] ;B[qn] ;W[qm] ;B[pm]C[Tien [-\]: How's this go? Finnish8d [-\]: you can live Finnish8d [-\]: so Q8 ] ;W[pl] ;B[om]C[Finnish8d [-\]: p6 ] ;W[on] ;B[rm] ;W[ql] ;B[ro]LB[gb:B][me:A][mj:C]C[Tien [-\]: Well, this kind of a fight I suppose Tien [-\]: White tries an attack on the lower side, and black aims for m6 Tien [-\]: Top right mostly becomes black territory Finnish8d [-\]: yes M6 is annnoying Tien [-\]: And the upper-side white is just a bit thin too Tien [-\]: Something like black A can be surprisingly effective, maybe Tien [-\]: Given that upper left has aji too Tien [-\]: B may have an effect on the corner? Tien [-\]: That's actually something to ask very quickly here Tien [-\]: It's a long game, but I feel black is thick in this scenario Tien [-\]: C fixes a lot of problems ])) (;W[lo]C[Tien [-\]: Is there time to start it now? Finnish8d [-\]: isn't N11 important for both groups? Tien [-\]: You mean black will play it now? Finnish8d [-\]: I will if I were b ] ;B[mi]C[Tien [-\]: Ah, okay ] ;W[ln]C[Tien [-\]: Jump o7? Finnish8d [-\]: yeah ok ] ;B[nm]C[Tien [-\]: Hmm, yeah, the white group is kind of heavy Tien [-\]: That's annoying ] ;W[of]C[Tien [-\]: Defend and black j4 is a good spot too ])) (;W[ee]C[Tien [-\]: I wanted to make the peep Finnish8d [-\]: ok b will answer G14 ] ;B[gf] ;W[gg]C[Finnish8d [-\]: E16 he can fix it in sente? ] ;B[ed]C[Veivi [2d?\]: was my main sequence ] (;W[dc]C[Finnish8d [-\]: I plan to do this but E16 is annoying Veivi [2d?\]: i thought this might happen Veivi [2d?\]: like this ]) (;W[ff] ;B[ef] ;W[de] ;B[fe] ;W[eb]C[Tien [-\]: Hmm, I see ])) (;W[ei]C[Tien [-\]: If here? ] ;B[cg] ;W[cf] ;B[dg]C[Finnish8d [-\]: yeah then tenuki Veivi [2d?\]: i would not play D13 Tien [-\]: Now corner is scary ])) (;B[ch]LB[de:C][ee:B][di:A]C[Tien [-\]: How does this go Finnish8d [-\]: I will just pillar C14 Tien [-\]: If possible, black really doesn't want to force white in a stronger shape with A Finnish8d [-\]: to me F14 cannot do the work? Tien [-\]: I think Veivi will be happy if white just plays c14 here Tien [-\]: So, Veivi, how does white play? Tien [-\]: F14, not immediately, no Veivi [2d?\]: I dont't know :) Veivi [2d?\]: it's true that if C14, i'm happy Tien [-\]: Yes Veivi [2d?\]: then i rather pick this Tien [-\]: Right Finnish8d [-\]: hehe ok Finnish8d [-\]: I will even if you say so :P Tien [-\]: As for the shape, B-C is always kind of black sente Tien [-\]: So unless white has some really sharp order of moves, black is fine Tien [-\]: But I can't see which order prevents B-C Tien [-\]: With B-C in place, black is already connected anyway ])) (;W[ld]C[Tien [-\]: So if I attach here? Finnish8d [-\]: that is negotiatable if in a more diplomatic way. :P Veivi [2d?\]: N17 ] ;B[mc] ;W[kf]C[Veivi [2d?\]: well, it was not me who cut first Tien [-\]: This should be the first impression though :D Finnish8d [-\]: Ah... I thought I had no choice. :P ] (;B[if] ;W[kg]C[Tien [-\]: If this happens, I have no idea what black is doing ]) (;B[jg]C[Tien [-\]: So I guess black has to keep extending ] (;W[md] ;B[nd] ;W[ne] ;B[od] ;W[kg]) (;W[kg]C[Tien [-\]: Better not to exchange it, probably ] (;B[kh]C[Finnish8d [-\]: :D ] ;W[if]C[Finnish8d [-\]: so sooner or later it will happen. ^^ Tien [-\]: Seems pretty uncontrollable for black though Tien [-\]: White can run pretty far for liberties ] ;B[jh] ;W[hf]C[Tien [-\]: So this probably can't end well for black ]) (;B[jh]LB[lo:A]TR[kh][ki]C[Tien [-\]: Hmm, well, maybe black can get something out of this too Tien [-\]: Even here, the main discussion is actually A Tien [-\]: Whether white will find time to cut or not Tien [-\]: Or whether black can fix it on a large scale Tien [-\]: If white can get two stones at triangles, A is really severe Tien [-\]: If black can get a turn at l12, then A is mostly fixed Tien [-\]: That kind of thinking ]))))) (;B[ke]LB[lo:A]C[Tien [-\]: How about pressing on this side? Veivi [2d?\]: hehe Veivi [2d?\]: this is kind of what i wanted Veivi [2d?\]: no idea why i didn't Finnish8d [-\]: yeah that is more like b plan at the start ^^ Tien [-\]: Indeed Tien [-\]: This is more like fixing A too ] ;W[je] (;B[jf]C[Tien [-\]: I kind of want to hane here :D ] ;W[if] ;B[kf]LB[ig:A]C[Tien [-\]: Question is if white can extend to A now Finnish8d [-\]: has to nobi ] ;W[ig] ;B[ie]C[Tien [-\]: Sacrifice two? Finnish8d [-\]: let it go then. :P Finnish8d [-\]: yeah ]) (;B[kf]LB[kc:A]C[Tien [-\]: Ok, keep it simple Tien [-\]: Now question is white can get A Tien [-\]: I don't think he can Tien [-\]: Black will turn Finnish8d [-\]: I will just keima ] (;W[kc] ;B[jf]) (;W[ig] ;B[ji]LB[cc:A]TR[mo][no][kp][np][pp][qp]C[Tien [-\]: I have no idea how to control this kind of game :D Tien [-\]: Black should try to find a good timing to ask A Finnish8d [-\]: it is fun as w ^^ Tien [-\]: I actually hate that black corner shape Tien [-\]: If white plays first, black crumbles Tien [-\]: But even if black plays once, it's still not efficient ])))) (;W[lo]C[Tien [-\]: So this is not just black saying, "fine, white can cut, I can fight" Tien [-\]: Black has to make sure *how* he fights Tien [-\]: Or else he should pick a safer way of play ] ;B[lp] (;W[ko]) (;W[ln]LB[nm:A][jo:B][gq:C]TR[do][dp][eq][dr]C[Tien [-\]: White can pick from among A-C next Tien [-\]: The four stones on the lower left, either, are not clearly "helping" in this Tien [-\]: They might become dead weight ] ;B[nm] (;W[gq]C[Tien [-\]: Me, personally I'm really scared of something like this Finnish8d [-\]: ah you mean I'd do this right away? Tien [-\]: Well, it's an option Tien [-\]: I have no idea how to do as black Finnish8d [-\]: Ok ^^ Tien [-\]: Probably something is possible, but... ]) (;W[hp]C[Tien [-\]: Even like this Finnish8d [-\]: give bottom left I guess ] ;B[jo] ;W[fo]C[Tien [-\]: This seems really nasty too ] ;W[ll]LB[ok:A]C[Tien [-\]: Given the chance, this jump is kind of sente against the right too Tien [-\]: Around A next seems painful to black ])))) (;B[oq]C[Tien [-\]: I don't know what is the absolute strongest way of play, but I'd prefer to wedge here ] ;W[or] ;B[op] ;W[mr] ;B[mo]C[Tien [-\]: Take gote, but get 100% safe shape Tien [-\]: This way, the game will remain more controllable for black ])) (;B[oq] ;W[qp] ;B[fp]LB[mq:A]C[Tien [-\]: Maybe before that, I'd prefer this way though Finnish8d [-\]: Ah I see Finnish8d [-\]: isn't this way, Q10 is kinda dull? Finnish8d [-\]: cos this is what I want in the game. :P Tien [-\]: Possibly, but A is also hard for white to escape in this game Tien [-\]: Black will resist ] (;W[mq] ;B[pr]C[Tien [-\]: So in this sense, there's use to q10 too Finnish8d [-\]: I know, so if this happenes I will immediately do Q8 ]) (;W[pl]C[Tien [-\]: Yeah, then it's fine ] ;B[fc]TR[pj][pl]C[Tien [-\]: I'm not sure if the marked exchange benefits either player? Finnish8d [-\]: ah get it ^^ Finnish8d [-\]: yeah I am just as dull :P Tien [-\]: White fixed the shape, but black played on the outside Tien [-\]: Should be an even game, more or less ])))